The Ten Commandments Twice Removed Part 1

The Ten Commandments Twice Removed, Review Part 1

What becomes readily apparent after a quick perusal of this book is that the subject is not really the Ten Commandments, not about whether they should be allowed or disallowed in public places and not about the historic importance of the Ten commandments to Western law. The intent of this book is to show that one is not keeping the Ten Commandments unless the denomination is holding to the Seventh day Sabbath. In other words the Jewish Sabbath is an eternal covenant with all Christians, it was giving before sin entered the world and it will remain after sin is removed from this world and we are in the world made new.

While this book has a price of $9.95 most who come into possession of this book will get it free. It's use is that of being an evangelistic tool to lead people into the Seventh-day Adventist church. This is in keeping with many of the historic patterns of evangelism used within the SDA church. That is mainly to point that the beliefs of the SDA's are the correct beliefs and showing that the SDA church meets the book of Revelation's words about the being the remnant who keep the commandments of God.

The assertion in the book from which the title 'Twice Removed" comes from is the idea that some Christians hold to the view that it is the Ten Commandments which were "nailed to the cross" which apparently led to the institution of Sunday gatherings for Christians. With time the Sabbath was transferred to Sunday, the book will quote Sabbatarians of the 1800's to show the Sabbath still stands however. The second removal is based upon the current move to remove plaques and monuments and the removal of the Ten Commandments from public schools. I personally don't know of any public schools that had the Ten Commandments let alone had them removed but there are certain states which have authorized their posting and others which considered posting them but due to threatened lawsuits withdraw the idea. The book does not cover this but you can read about it at the Anti-Defamation League website. 

The book is very scarce with facts for its assertions and gives little evidence about how they arrive at their positions. The book works upon the assumption that no one will question their assertions and interpretations thus the book is poorly footnoted or referenced. And as can be seen in the link below many of their interpretations are very questionable.

While in the critique which is linked here I have real problems with many of the interpretation the book gives. This does not mean I do not value the Sabbath or gathering on the seventh day of the week. I hold to the postition that each should be convinced in their own mind. I do not condemn Sunday keepers for their attendance on Sunday nor do I condemn those who promote the idea of Seventh day Sabbath keepers. I don't think these are issues that should divide Christians and that is why I have taken the time to present the problems with the book mentioned. I have placed my critique on a seperate page because I use a lot of quotes from the book and at the time of this writing there are seven pages and it is not complete yet. I am trying to catch the main issues raised yet not get to carried away.

To view the link click here.

Ten Commandments Twice Removed - Shelton & Quinn

As way of introduction to the book The Ten Commandments Twice Removed by Danny Shelton and Shelley Quinn I am posting some links to other's view about this book and the campaign. I will later post several quotes from the book and my responses to some of the books content. First this from the Washingon Post By Michelle Boorstein

Washington Post Staff Writer
Saturday, May 6, 2006; Page B05

Are you one of the 135,000-plus people who were handed a free book about the Ten Commandments this week at a Washington Metro stop or street corner?

If so, you were part of a $3.2 million campaign by an Illinois-based radio and television ministry that calls itself a "mending broken people network." You also got a glimpse into what religious people across the spectrum are calling the Ten Commandments movement, a patchwork of groups who agree that America needs to focus on Old Testament morals -- but not much else.

The movement is a response to recent legislation and court rulings across the country relating to the display of the Ten Commandments, which appear in the Books of Exodus and Deuteronomy and are considered by some to be inappropriate for display on public property. The loose coalition includes evangelical Christian, Baptist and Pentecostal leaders, as well as Seventh-day Adventists and Jews, all of whom would like to see the Decalogue get a little more respect.

It also includes the Three Angels Broadcasting Network, the organization that started giving away 270,000 copies of the book "Ten Commandments Twice Removed" on Thursday. The ministry, a growing offshoot of the Adventist church, said it hoped to draw 10,000 people last night and today to "Ten Commandments Weekend," an event at the D.C. Armory featuring music and sermons about the commandments.

Ozark Angel blog writes:

Bearing False Witness Door to Door

I hear a knock on the door last Saturday, and standing before me on my front step are two gentlemen carrying paperback books about the Ten Commandments.

The younger of the two men did all the talking while his buddy, an older man who was obviously nervous about this door-to-door thing, stood smiling throughout his partner's narrative. I was treated to a well-rehearsed story that began . . .

"Of course, you know that the ten commandments have been removed from the schools and that the pledge of allegiance is no longer recited in the classroom. There has been a concerted effort to remove prayer and God from the schools . . . "

It was somewhere about here when I interrupted the young man to tell him that I was a public school teacher…

And Sellers S. Crain, Jr. of Rivergate church writes the following:

Interestingly, I received a copy of a new book last week, The Ten Commandments Twice Removed, written by Danny Shelton and Shelley Quinn which takes advantage of the recent publicity afforded the ten commandment controversy. While on the surface it pretends to be defending the right of the Ten Commandments to be displayed in public places, it appears that its real main purpose is to promote the observance of the Sabbath Day. The authors claim that the Ten Commandments were not part of the "ordinances" that were nailed to the cross (Colossians 2:14), and therefore the fourth commandment "Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy" is still bound on Christians today.

The authors of this volume cite many New Testament references, quotes from Jesus Himself, in their attempt to prove their thesis (Matthew 5:18; 21-23; 27-28; 24:15-24). In doing so these authors fail to understand that while Jesus lived and died under the old law, He fulfilled that law upon His death and ushered in a new covenant. Jesus said that "For assuredly, I say unto you, till heaven and earth shall pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law until all is fulfilled (Matthew 5:18). This means that the law, which included the Ten Commandments, would stand only so long as it remained unfulfilled. After His resurrection Jesus said, "These are the words (those in the text just cited; emphasis added) which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me" (Luke 24:44). The three divisions of the Old Testament mentioned are inclusive of the entire Old Testament and were those recognized by the Jews. Jesus said all of the law would remain in effect until it was fulfilled in its entirety, and upon His resurrection He said that had been accomplished.

Quoting from the prophet Jeremiah, the author of the book of Hebrews made it clear that the Old Testament covenant in its entirety had been abolished, and it had been replaced by a more comprehensive covenant which included all people (8:6-13). Other New Testament passages can be cited to prove the cessation of the old covenant (Ephesians 2:12-16; Colossians 2:14; Hebrews 9:15-17; 10:1-4). These passages are proof positive that the entire old covenant was nailed to the cross when Christ died, therefore we are no longer under the Ten Commandments.

This being said, I must add that I am not opposed to the Ten Commandments being displayed in public places. They have long been a symbol of this nation's legal heritage and of its desire to be a nation founded upon the principle of law. With many others in our nation, I do fear the erosion of our constitutional rights as Christians, and I am concerned that there is an all out assault upon Christianity alone today. No other religion today in this nation is confronted with the constant bombardment of negative publicity that is being directed at our founder, Jesus Christ, and at the religion He founded (Matthew 16:13-19). "And do this; knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep; for now our salvation is nearer than when we first believed" (Romans 13:11).

10 Commandment Advocates Scare Adventist Help Blog

Mark Bishop at The Adventist Help Blog Has an article on the Ten commandments. As is often the case with the more reactionary elements in the Adventist church he fears that those trying to retain the 10 commandment plaques and monuments which have stood for decades in this country are trying to enforce Sunday keeping laws upon American society.

While celebration and public reminders to keep all of God’s Ten Commandments can be good, there’s a very serious undertone taking place that’s associated with this movement that is troubling to many other God fearing and Commandment keeping folks.

And that reason is the Ten Commandment Day Commission has also introduced legislation into Congress to supposedly protect our religious freedom by legally forcing you to acknowledge, or remember, that God is in America. Those bills already introduced are The Constitution Restoration Act of 2005, S520 in the Senate and HR1070 in the House of Representives.

The Constitution Restoration Act of 2005 (H.R. 1070, S. 520) has been introduced to use the constitutional power of Congress to limit the jurisdiction of federal courts to protect the right of government agencies and officials to acknowledge God. In short, this commission and others want the government to be able to legally enforce you to keep the Commandments of God.

Folks, there are many in our country who strongly believe that the disasters of Katrina and other events could be warnings from God that our country is possibily being punished, or ignored, by God due to our immorality and the turning away from God’s principles, His Commandments. But is it necessary to pass laws to force you and I to obey God?

How would you feel if the government told you that Sunday is the chosen legal day for everyone to attend church and those who disagreed with “that” law would be fined or worse? Would not God be more pleased to see us love and obey him by our faith as --evidence of our love for the Lord and concern to our fellow men?

--

If Mr. Bishop bothered to read the legislation he would find his concerns to be without merit. Constitution Restoration Act of 2005 (Introduced in Senate) S 520 is actually very important because it attempts to restrain Judicial activists from basing law interpretation upon other then US law and constitution. Something that is becoming more common by the more liberal judges. The legislation says:

SEC. 201. INTERPRETATION OF THE CONSTITUTION.

In interpreting and applying the Constitution of the United States, a court of the United States may not rely upon any constitution, law, administrative rule, Executive order, directive, policy, judicial decision, or any other action of any foreign state or international organization or agency, other than English constitutional and common law up to the time of the adoption of the Constitution of the United States.

The only mention of God in the legislation is designed to protect government agents from being penalized for having a belief in a sovereign God.

Sec. 1260. Matters not reviewable

`Notwithstanding any other provision of this chapter, the Supreme Court shall not have jurisdiction to review, by appeal, writ of certiorari, or otherwise, any matter to the extent that relief is sought against an entity of Federal, State, or local government, or against an officer or agent of Federal, State, or local government (whether or not acting in official or personal capacity), concerning that entity's, officer's, or agent's acknowledgment of God as the sovereign source of law, liberty, or government.'.

That such legislation has become needed is a sad commentary on the state of our society but there has clearly been an assault upon religious freedom by Secular Progressives. There are a few examples of this in an article I wrote several years ago dealing with some loss of rights in Canada, but it is not restricted to the Canadian issues.
Free Speech Canada, Intolerant for the sake of Tolerance

Response to Just Pastors blog article

From the Blog Just Pastors last article on their Da Vinci Code series:

The basic challenge The DaVinci Code presents to Adventists is an alternate, yet very similar, conspiracy theory. The Adventist version is that the Emperor Constantine mixed paganism with Christianity, replacing the Sabbath with Sunday observance and a personal relationship with God with the priesthood, the end result being the Roman Catholic Church. Dan Browns version is the Emperor Constantine removed paganism from Christianity by having the Church proclaim Christ as fully divine and fully human while excluding all others as heratics. (There’s the whole Mary Magdaline thing too, but that won’t be an issue for most Adventists.)

So who’s right? The problem is that they both are. If Constantine was bent of paganism, why did he get the church together at Nicea and have them proclaim that Jesus was God; and if he was trying to exclude paganism, why did he incorporate so many pagan traditions into Christianity?

This is a troubling perspective because neither view is right and both views are wrong. Constantine brought Christian leaders together but he did nothing to cause the outcome of the counsels other then after them reinstate some of the Arians. Further Sunday had for many years been the day for gathering of Christians, Saturday was also held but due to the Jewish nature of it there was a somewhat natural feeling that the Christians did not want to be seen as Jews who rejected Christ or even as the Jews who accepted Christ yet demanded that people had to obey all the Jewish laws (the Ebionites). Constantine did not give the idea of Priesthood in place of a relationship with God it was an out growth of Roman Catholic teachings based upon the idea of the sacrament of Holy Orders and the mass.
Which confers special spiritual powers to the Priest. The canon law established nothing at these councils about the sacrament of the Priest or the mass but dealt with limiting where bishops could be:

Canon II.

The bishops are not to go beyond their dioceses to churches lying outside of their bounds, nor bring confusion on the churches; but let the Bishop of Alexandria, according to the canons, alone administer the affairs of Egypt; and let the bishops of the East manage the East alone, the privileges of the Church in Antioch, which are mentioned in the canons of Nice, being preserved; and let the bishops of the Asian Diocese administer the Asian affairs only; and the Pontic bishops only Pontic matters; and the Thracian bishops only Thracian affairs. And let not bishops go beyond their dioceses for ordination or any other ecclesiastical ministrations, unless they be invited. And the aforesaid canon concerning dioceses being observed, it is evident that the synod of every province will administer the affairs of that particular province as was decreed at Nice. But the Churches of God in heathen nations must be governed according to the custom which has prevailed from the times of the Fathers.

I won't go into the problem with Dan Brown's view as it is pretty well documented today just how historically wrong it is. Certainly Constantine did not get the leaders together to declare that Jesus was God, even the Arian's believed that Jesus was divine though they asserted He was not of the same substance as God since He was begotten of God at some point in ancient times. I am not certain that David Hamstra the auther of the above article really ever read Dan Browns book.

Traditions whether Pagan or otherwise are not inserted by some act of conspiracy they are incorporated through time based upon peoples beliefs. After Luther told the people of his church that it was ok to take both the bread and the wine rather then just one which the church had previously allowed many were afraid to take it. Many were afraid to touch the bread even after they were convinced, the old ways held a powerful influence upon them. So it was with Paganism human beings rarely completely change it is a process.

Just Pastor's continues:

So does this mean that Adventists should give up on protestantism and restorationism? I don’t think so; in fact I don’t think we should give up on conspiracy theory either. But we do need to stop thinking of the conspiracy in terms of the human players involved.

The Bible tells us the real conspirator is Satan, who works through many different human agencies, even people who think they are doing the right thing. If fact, it’s just as possible for him to use a good person to bring about evil (e.g. King David) as it is for God to use an evil person to bring about good (e.g. Joseph’s brothers). This realization frees us to evaluate history by the Bible and within its moral/truth framework to protest the workings of Satan and accept the workings of God within the same person or organization.

There is really no conspiracy against God there are choices people make, believe or unbelief, trust or rejection. All human consequences come from the choices that we make. We can create our own religion or distort a religion we are not pawns moved by the great Demon Satan. We are quite capable of doing evil apart from the manipulation of Satan. As long as we are not held under some kind of conspiracy theory we will be able to evaluate history without the need to see angels and demons in everything.

Dan Brown and most Adventists do indeed both have conspiracy theories and both are based upon false information that is accepted uncritically because it pleases the holder. Both are demonstrably false yet often held on to just as tightly because it is their belief and that belief is sacrosanct. The scholarship of the 1800's, the theology of the 1800's is not anymore authoratative then that of the 1100's. For many Adventists their religious progress ended at the turn of the century.

New Feature - List of Adventist Blogs

You will notice something new on this blog. On the right hand side you will find a list of links to Adventist Blogs. This is the most complete list of Adventist blogs I have seen on the Internet. Of course it does not have every Adventist blog nor even every Adventist blog I have found. The list is made by my personal choice as to the significance of the blogs. Blogs, which offer personal diaries type information, did not make it to my list nor do blogs that have no activity in the year 2006. Believe me I understand the bloggers frustration and why someone may feel that no one reads their blog what is the point of continuing if no one reads. So Congratulations to all you bloggers who have stuck with it. If you have a blog you would like listed please let me know with a comment or an e-mail to NewProtestants@yahoo.com

The list of Adventist blogs is provided for you to visit those blogs as I will also do. I intend to offer my perspective on the articles on their blogs here as well as in the comments on their blogs on interesting subjects. As Blogging is a rather cooperative effort hopefully we can build a creative and substantive network of blogs.

For those who may want to also put the blogs on their website here is the list:

http://cafesda.blogspot.com/

http://anewsabbathschool.blogspot.com/ Sabbath School for a New Generation

http://www.adventistpulpit.com/ Adventist Pulpit

http://abundantrest.org/ Abundant Rest

http://oregonadventistpastor.blogspot.com/ Oregon Adventist Pastor (Greg Brothers)

http://adultsabbathschool.blogspot.com/ The Adult Sabbath School Class (Greg Brothers)

http://apokalupto.blogspot.com// Apokalupto (David Hamstra)

http://www.jjblogs.com/justpastors// Just Pastors

http://ryanbell.typepad.com// Intersections - (Hollywood Pastor)

http://paulwhiting.blogspot.com/ Paul Whiting

http://kb-adventist.blogspot.com/ KB-Adventist

http://charleeb.blogspot.com/ Adventist Thoughts

http://www.adventisthelp.com/blogger_7/ Adventist Help

http://collegian.wwc.edu/blogs/ WWC Collegian Blogs/a

http://charleeb.blogspot.com/ Adventist Thoughts/a

http://melodytan.blogspot.com/ Aussie Adventures/a

http://tribeoflevi.blogspot.com// Tribe of Levi/a

http://advennturer.blogspot.com/ Doug's Advenntures

http://www.deebarizo.blogspot.com/ Adventures in Campus Ministry

http://arnoldgamboa.com/ Better Than Life

Barna poll on the Da Vinci Code

Barna has an interesting poll out recently

Perceived Value of the Content
Among the adults who have read the entire book, one out of every four (24%) said the book was either “extremely,” “very,” or “somewhat” helpful in relation to their “personal spiritual growth or understanding.” That translates to about 11 million adults who consider The Da Vinci Code to have been a helpful spiritual document.

Changing People’s Beliefs
The study also explored whether or not the book caused people to change some of their religious beliefs. Among the 45 million who have read The Da Vinci Code , only 5% - which represents about two million adults – said that they changed any of the beliefs or religious perspectives because of the book’s content. …

“On the other hand,” the researcher continued, “any book that alters one or more theological views among two million people is not to be dismissed lightly. That’s more people than will change any of their beliefs as a result of exposure to the teaching offered at all of the nation’s Christian churches combined during a typical week.”

While 5% is a relatively small percentage when you deal with 5% of 45 million it adds up and it becomes significant that the ideas in this book changed their beliefs or religious perspectives based upon very faulty information presented in the book. Probably the biggest problem is Dan Brown’s assertion in introduction of the book that the book is based upon facts apart from the mystery crime elements of the story.

Right after the Acknowledgement the book says:

FACT:
The Priory of Sion-a European secret society founded in 1099-is a real organization. In 1975 Paris's Bibliothèque Nationale discovered parchments known as Les Dossiers Secrets, identifying numerous members of the Priory of Sion, including Sir Isaac Newton, Botticelli, Victor Hugo, and Leonardo da Vinci.
The Vatican prelature known as Opus Dei is a deeply devout Catholic sect that has been the topic of recent controversy due to reports of brainwashing, coercion, and a dangerous practice known as "corporal mortification." Opus Dei has just completed construction of a $47 million World Headquarters at 243 Lexington Avenue in New York City.
All descriptions of artwork, architecture, documents, and secret rituals in this novel are accurate.

It is also peculiar that 24% said the book was at least somewhat helpful in their spiritual growth or understanding. Mainly because the book offers no Christian perspective of spirituality. Dan Brown's pagan [site loads slowly] views are offered and a distorted Catholic view through the Opus Dei characters

To end on a good note the Book and movie seems to lead Catholics back to the Bible according to the latest Zogby poll

The survey of Catholics nationwide also found that the movie The Da Vinci Code will drive more Catholics than not to the scriptures. A plurality – 42% – said that after hearing about the book and movie, they intend to seek truth by studying the Bible more closely.

A couple of my articles on the Da Vinci code can be found at:
A Christian Aspect Review of Dan Brown’s The Da Vinci Code

Dan Brown’s The Da Vinci Code -If it’s Tuesday this must be a conspiracy- humor

Shaun Groves Impressed by Adventist Youth

Contemporary Christian Music Artist Shaun Groves writes on his blog about Adventist youth

My thinking about this kind of church peaked this past weekend when I spent time with a small denomination Seventh Day Adventists. It was a youth event. Something I rarely do, especially alone with my acoustic guitar. But these kids were so different from other kids I've spent time with. They listened. And afterwards they talked with me for over an hour - about Napoleon Dynamite, Mormonism, favorite classes etc. But they also asked great questions and, without being show offs at all, could incorporate scripture and and life experience into the conversations about their beliefs and how they differ from other denominations. They spoke naturally about community service and volunteering at church. I can't describe it well; they were just mature, more mature than most youth I meet and definitely more mature than I was at their age - maybe even at my age today.

He continues with some interesting thoughts take a moment to read them.
http://readshlog.blogspot.com/2006/01/event-driven-church.html

One things Adventist have done well is to instill Biblical knowledge, this is especially noticeable when one visits other Christian discussion forums. The problem which all Christians have in common is finding meaning for their lives through application of scriptural knowledge.

More from the Ellen White Summit presentations

Moderator’s question:
“How do you respond to people who use Deut. 18:21 to disqualify Ellen White in the light of her vision where an angel told her that some present at Battle Creek would not die before Christ returned?”

George Knight response:
“That’s one I want to take. We’re finding a lot of people are finally realize that Ellen White had a lot of prophecies that never come.. came true. And we used to teach …Deuteronomy that when a prophets prophecy did come true then you know they were a true prophet. What these people fail recognize is the Bible is full of unfulfilled prophecies. You take a look at the old testament woooph most of the prophecies in the huh prophets are unfulfilled. Why? Ellen White gives the answer in Manuscript 4 1883. That all of God’s prophecies are conditional. If Israel would have behaved itself and done God’s will then those old testament prophecies would have been fulfilled. And I personally believe if God’s Church would have done God’s will we wouldn’t be here. But all prophecy and this is Ellen White herself, all prophecy is conditional prophecy and maybe the best article in all the articles of the 7 volumes of the SDA Bible Commentaries in volume 4 on conditional prophecy. Read it. That is a jewel.”
--Question and answer period (part 8) 2005 Ellen White Summit beginning at 24 minutes into session.

When you hear this statement of George Knight you realize why elsewhere he said that he did not hold to any old tests for a prophet.

“You know why I believe Ellen White’s a prophet I don’t go for any of the old tests number one she points me to Jesus number two she points me to the Bible. That’s it! She never points to herself…I can’t get off on that.”
--From Using and Interpreting Ellen White by George Knight {Part2} 2005 Ellen White Summit 33 minutes in

George Knight’s position is not much different from the White Estate’s position. First let us refresh our memory about what Ellen White actually said:

“But we were yet to pass through another severe trial. At the conference a very solemn vision was given me. I saw that some of those present would be food for worms, some subjects for the seven last plagues, and some would be translated to heaven at the second coming of Christ, without seeing death. Sr. Bonfoey remarked to a sister as we left the meeting-house, “I feel impressed that I am one that will soon be food for worms.” The conference closed Monday. Thursday Sr. B. sat at the table with us apparently well. She then went to the Office as usual, to help get off the paper. In about two hours I was sent for. Sr. B. had been suddenly taken very ill. My health had been very poor, yet I hastened to suffering Clara. In a few hours she seemed some better. The next morning we had her brought home in a large chair, and she was laid upon her own bed from which she was never to rise. Her symptoms became alarming, and we had fears that a tumor, which had troubled her for nearly ten years, had broken inwardly. It was so, and mortification was doing its work.” Vol. 2 Spiritual Gifts p. 208

I was shown the company present at the Conference. Said the angel: “Some food for worms, some subjects of the seven last plagues, some will be alive and remain upon the earth to be translated at the coming of Jesus.” Vol. 1Testimonies p. 131

When EGW saw her prophecies fail she created the idea of all prophecy as conditional:
Selected Messages Book 1, page 67, paragraph 8

Chapter Title: An Explanation of Early Statements

“The angels of God in their messages to men represent time as very short. Thus it has always been presented to me. It is true that time has continued longer than we expected in the early days of this message. Our Saviour did not appear as soon as we hoped. But has the word of the Lord failed? Never! It should be remembered that the promises and threatenings of God are alike conditional.”


Now the White Estate has published a response to those who bring up this quote. They say that if people had truly repented and followed God, He would have come and fulfilled the prophecy, but since they didn’t God in mercy extended time. However where do we get the information that if they had followed God, He would have come? We get it from Ellen White, thus she is allowed to explain why her false prophecy was not correct. This is complete circular reasoning. If you allow a so called prophet to explain away why their predictions do not come to pass, there will never be anyway to test any predictive prophecies. In fact we will be forced to hold to scores of today’s so called prophets because we have no way to test a prophet anymore. We will be reduced to saying that person must be a prophet because he or she points to the Bible and points to Jesus. Yet it is questionable with Ellen Whites presentation that all prophecy is conditional that she is pointing to the Bible at all since she is actually refuting such verses as Deuteronomy 18:20-22.

Is it wise to put the Biblical principles against those of Ellen White. If God had ever truly meant for all prophecy to be conditional why would the statement in Deuteronomy even have needed to be recorded. The Bible record would have to be held responsible for the rejection of prophets who were merely giving conditional prophecies.
“But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death." You may say to yourselves, "How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD?" If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.”(Deu 18:20-22 NIV)

Yet the Bible instead of treating all prophecy as conditional gives the principles that create some prophecy as conditional. A useful illustration is found in Jeremiah:

“If at any time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down and destroyed, and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned. And if at another time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be built up and planted, and if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do for it.” (Jer 18:7-10 NIV)

Another is found very early in the Biblical record when Israel was offered the choice between blessing and curses.
“See, I am setting before you today a blessing and a curse-- the blessing if you obey the commands of the LORD your God that I am giving you today; the curse if you disobey the commands of the LORD your God and turn from the way that I command you today by following other gods, which you have not known.” (Deuteronomy 11:26-28 NIV)

Jeremiah who had his own struggle with false prophets does not produce the idea that all prophecy is conditional but he notes that since bad things happen all the time someone predicting bad things will be right quite often but it is only God’s prophets who are able to predict the good things also. Ellen White’s prediction of being translated would in most anyone’s estimation be considered a good future prediction.
Jeremiah 28:8-9 says:
“From early times the prophets who preceded you and me have prophesied war, disaster and plague against many countries and great kingdoms. But the prophet who prophesies peace will be recognized as one truly sent by the LORD only if his prediction comes true.” (NIV)

There is not any better prophecy of peace than to be with Jesus at His coming.

Determining the accuracy of a professed prophet is part of the Biblical tests of a prophet. Unfortunately many SDA’s don’t want people to use that test. Many will quote Ellen White saying that Christ would have come ere this if only the people had done their work. So using the ever present circular reasoning they completely destroy the Biblical test by saying if what the supposed prophet says does not come to pass, then the supposed prophet is allowed to give an explanation as to why the prophecy did not come to pass. If you allowed the supposed prophet this ability there is not ever going to be a prophet anywhere or any time with a false of presumptive prophecy because they will simply explain it away. However the Bible does not offer up that option, so we can be objective about testing a prophet. Finally if all prophecy is conditional maybe God is not preparing a place for us, maybe Jesus is not going to return. Maybe even the condition of God’s love and acceptance will not be met and the whole Gospel is meaningless because we have not met some unlisted conditions.
--Ron

Ellen White and Canright

The Ellen White Summit indeed has some interesting material. But there is a good deal of false information in there also. As time allows I will deal with some of the problems that come up.

The first is from one of the lesser presenters at the summit. I don't think I could possibly find time to deal with all the logical fallacies he uses in his presentation on "Ellen White and her Critics" Jud Lake tried to point out the logical fallacies of the critics but really mainly points out his own fallacies. A big one he uses is the A priori fallacy he says that the critics use because they begin with the assumption that she is not a prophet. Yet for some reason his own fallacy and that of all the presentors that EGW is a prophet are not considered to be A priori fallacies.

But here is what Jud says at about 34 minutes into his presentation on Ellen White and Inspiration (part 4):
“Ellen White experienced numerous times the Prophetic model, dreams and visions. But some have taken this to an extreme, a number of the people in her day took this to an extreme and this is where the critics have made a big mistake. They’ve taken.. pushed this envelope I should say of this model. And gotten into what we discussed already, verbal dictation. Listen to Canright, remember who Canright is famed critic he wrote in his critical book on Ellen White I shared with you in my last presentation. Listen, every line she wrote he believed whether in articles letters testimonies or books she claimed and this is my bold she claimed was dictated to her by the Holy Ghost and hence must be infallible. This I think contributed to his great fall or some say he more took the position when he turned against the Adventist church but either way this is what he is saying here, he saying she claimed this well I think it is already very clear she did not claim this. Dr. Newborn touched on this…”
-- Jud Lake Professor of Preaching and Adventist Studies at he School of Religion, Southern Adventist University. “Ellen White and Inspiration” 2005 Ellen White Summit Gladstone Oregon

Compare what Canright actually wrote as found in chapter 3 at: http://www.ellenwhite.org/canright/egw16.htm


“Her Writings All Inspired by the Holy Ghost
Now read what Mrs. White claims for her writings. Defining her position, she says:

"In ancient times God spoke through the mouths of prophets and apostles. In these days he speaks to them by the Testimonies of his Spirit" (Testimonies, Vol. IV., p. 148; Vol. V., p. 661).
Here she places herself on a level with all the Bible writers, both prophets and apostles. (See Heb. 1:1,2.) Any one who rejects or opposes her writings is branded as a rebel fighting against God. Thus she says:

"If you lessen the confidence of God's people in the testimonies he has sent them, you are rebelling against God as certainly as were Korah, Dathan and Abirum" ("Testimonies," Vol. V., p. 66).

Here she classes herself in authority with Moses. From this it will be seen that her followers have made no greater claims for her than she made for herself.

She claims that every line she writes, even in a private letter, is directly inspired by God - "the precious rays of light shining from the throne" (same book, p. 67). Of her own words she says: "It is God, and not an erring mortal, that has spoken" (Testimonies, Vol. III., p. 257). She states over and over that those who doubt or oppose her are fighting against God, sinning against the Holy Ghost. Thus: "fighting the Spirit of God. Those. . . who would break down our testimony, I saw, are not fighting against us, but against God" (p. 260).

Again she says:

When I went to Colorado, I wrote many pages to be read at your camp meeting. . . God was speaking through clay. You might say this communication was only a letter. Yes, it was a letter, but prompted by the Spirit of God, to bring before your minds things that had been shown me. In these letters which I write, . . . I am presenting to you that which the Lord has presented to me. I do not write one article in the paper expressing merely my own ideas. They are what God has opened before me in vision - the precious rays of light shining from the throne" (Testimonies, Vol. V., pp. 63-67).

Notice that she claims to be simply the mouthpiece for God. They are not her words, but God's words, the same as the Bible - God speaking through clay. All through her writings designed especially for her own people may be found expressions of this kind. In her books prepared for the public, however, all these expressions are carefully omitted.

It is not Canright who said that Ellen White’s words must be infallible it was his response to the followers of Ellen White who saw her as infallible and he gives examples:

Canright writes also in chapter 3:

Now read this from G.A. Irwin, many years president of their General Conference. On page 1 of a tract entitled "The Mark of the Beast", he says:
"It is from the standpoint of the light that has come through the Spirit of Prophecy [Mrs. White's writings] that the question will be considered, believing as we do that the Spirit of Prophecy is the only infallible interpreter of Bible principles, since it is Christ through this agency giving the real meaning of his words."

It is possible that by the term “Spirit of Prophecy” Irwin means the Holy Spirit in which case his statement would be accurate but considering the common SDA usage of the term Spirit of Prophecy to refer to Ellen White’s writings we are left to take it whatever way we may prefer.

In all this however we know that Canright did not have some wooden literal view of Ellen White being verbally inspired. As he wrote in chapter 9:

Mrs. White's visions ceased about the time of the change of life common to women. While she still had visions, she claimed that much that she "saw" went entirely from her mind at the time. Months, even years later, when she met a brother or a church that needed a "testimony," the part relating to these all came vividly to her mind, she said. She would then write out this portion of the forgotten "vision."

This worked very well till years after her visions ceased. Finally this could not be stretched further. Then her revelations had to come in a different way; by a voice, by dreams, by "impressions," by some one on "authority" speaking, and the like. The following expressions, taken from the last volume of her "Testimonies for the Church," Vol. IX., published in 1909, are examples of this. Page 13: "I was instructed." Page 82: "Instruction has been given me." Page 65: "In the night of March 2, 1907, many things were revealed to me." The room, she said, was very light. Page 66: "Then a voice spoke to me." Page 95: "The angel stood by my side." But she had no vision as formerly. Page 98: "Instruction has been given me." Page 101: "In the night season I was awakened from a deep sleep and given a view." Page 137: "In the night season matters have been presented to me." Page 195: "At one time I seemed to be in a council meeting." The expression, "I have been instructed," occurs over and over in these later alleged revelations, just as the expression, "I saw," does in her earlier writings

Ellen White Summit 2005

If you haven't seen the DVDs and weren't at the conference (Ellen White Summit 2005) you may want to check out what the four speakers (George R. Knight, Craig Newborn, Jud Lake, and Jon Paulien) had to say November 11-12, 2005 in Gladstone, OR.

http://ellenwhitesummit.foxyresearch.com

The page listed above was put together from portions of the PDF file outlining the summit doings and audio extracted and processed for clarity from the DVDs. The audio on the DVDs is low quality, so if you think the MP3s available for download on the site are bad . . . that is nothing compared to the 60 Hz hum (at times half the volume of the speaker) in the original background.

Needless to say, ordering the 4 DVDs (app. 8 hours of presentations) for $60 (and $9+ shipping) is not recommended. :)

I think that everyone should listen to all of these.


JS

GC President wimps out

Just saw this from the GC President about the Danish cartoon controversy. Impressive that he criticizes the cartoonist use of their free expression. Yet says nothing about the Muslim violence and destruction and killing as they express their views. Quite a difference drawing pictures versus burning buildings and killing people...who should the GC president address? Oh of course the people who he knows won't kill him, the editorial cartoonists. What a leader!

GC President Responds to Muslim Caricature Controversy

Following an increase in global tension surrounding the publication-in newspapers in Denmark and other European countries-of caricatures that some Muslims worldwide have found insulting, Jan Paulsen, world president of the Seventh-day Adventist Church, issued a call for the responsible use of the right of free expression.

"It is unfortunate that the publication of freely expressed opinions . . . has inflamed relations among people," Paulsen said in a statement released at the Adventist world headquarters.

"As Seventh-day Adventists we support and encourage the responsible use of the right of free expression," he added. "Inherent in that responsibility is also being mindful of not insulting others and causing injury to their beliefs and practices. Opinions can be shared without the color of disrespect, and debate can take place but without offending the beliefs of others."

Drawing on many years of experience in intercultural ministry in Africa and around the world, Paulsen noted the importance of valuing diversity and of building harmonious communities, while at the same time acknowledging the importance of free speech.

"My work as a Seventh-day Adventist leader has taken me to many nations. I witness the value of diversity and the fact that Christians build the community alongside adherents of many other religions and worldviews," he said. "And I recommend that living by the principle of the Golden Rule, which asks us to do unto others as we would wish them to do unto us, would inspire us to live in harmony with all people, be free in expressing our views, but also maintaining courtesy and respect to all."

More than 25 million people worship weekly in Seventh-day Adventist congregations in 203 countries and territories around the world. --Adventist News Network.

http://adventistreview.org/article.php?id=335

ProgressiveAdventist.com is now found at
Http://NewProtestants.com/sda.htm

10 commandment Religious Liberty Association

There is a recent release from North American Religious Liberty Association on the 10 commandments, apparently the church is taking a stand without taking a stand. I could find no official SDA site that had the release that was sent out via email to various places. So I will copy the whole thing here from SDANEWS.

SDANEWS: Ten Commandments Controversy
From: North American Religious Liberty Association (narla@religiousliberty.info)
Date: Wed Mar 02 2005 - 22:24:15 EST


Ten Commandments Controversy

It is over 3,300 years since Moses brought two tables of stone down
from Mt. Sinai. Three thousand three hundred years is a long time by
any human reckoning, and yet, the Commandments have never been as
relevant or as controversial as they are today. This week the U.S.
Supreme Court are set to decide if the government can display the Ten
Commandments, and if so, in what context.

Government Displays of the Ten Commandments are Problematic

Whenever the government becomes involved in religion, it is problematic
and the posting of the Ten Commandments is no exception.

• Which version? There are three widely recognized versions of the Ten
Commandments; the Protestant, the Catholic and the Jewish. When the
government decides to display the Commandments written out, it must
choose whose version to endorse. In recent years, edited versions of
the Ten Commandments have been displayed. These edits exclude, for
example, any reference to resting on the seventh day. This exclusion
has profound theological ramifications.

• What does the setting communicate? God placed the Ten Commandments
in the Ark of the Covenant under the Mercy Seat where blood
representing the atoning sacrifice of Christ was sprinkled. This
setting communicates the grace of God who mixes mercy and forgiveness
with judgment. The secular court house is a completely different
context. Here, if a man is guilty, he must pay the price. There is no
blood of Christ sprinkled as an atonement for his wrong doing that sets
him free. Placing the Ten Commandments in the court house setting takes
the heart out of the gospel message.

• Are the arguments accurate? At the heart of the arguments in favor
of government Ten Commandments Monuments is the claim that America’s
laws are based on the Ten Commandments, but is this true? If we look at
the Ten Commandments, only four are commonly found in the legal code,
and three of those are found in virtually all legal codes throughout
history. These three are: 1) Prohibition on killing, 2) Prohibition on
stealing, and 3) Prohibition on lying (American law forbids this in
very specific circumstances). The only laws that are uniquely based on
the Ten Commandments are prohibitions on engaging in certain kinds of
work on Sunday, which are a mistaken attempt to enforce the Fourth
Commandment. There is nothing in our laws about coveting, making graven
images, having gods before God, forcing children to honor their
parents, blasphemy (western nations used to enforce blasphemy laws),
and little if anything left regarding adultery. In truth, the laws of
the United States developed out of a long, complex legal tradition that
reaches back to the dawn of history and includes a broad array of
influences and cover a broad range of issues not even hinted at in the
Ten Commandments (e.g. everything from parking regulations to federal
communications law).

• Is this the right emphasis? There can be no doubt that society has
drifted away from God’s law. Ironically, much of this drift has been
encouraged by churches who have taught that the Ten Commandments were
“nailed to the cross” and therefore are not binding on Christians
today and that, further, it is impossible for those living under God’s
grace to keep them. Before soliciting the state to erect monuments of
the Ten Commandments, churches need to begin lifting up the law of God
as fulfilled in the life of Christ and imbued to His followers by His
grace.

Ten Commandments Litigation is Unproductive

Despite the problems surrounding the government posting of the Ten
Commandments, the litigation to have them removed is singularly
unhelpful. This litigation causes serious offense to the general public
for little, if any, gain.

Indeed, after their last Ten Commandments “victory” in Alabama, USA
Today published a pole that found 77% of Americans disagreed with the
removal of the Ten Commandments from the Alabama Supreme Court. There
are times when deeply offending 77% of America may not only be
worthwhile, but essential. This is not one of those cases. The backlash
caused by these cases is likely to hurt religious liberty for decades
to come.

Ideal Way to Communicate a Gospel Focused Message

Because of the uniquely unproductive nature of this litigation, NARLA
has not filed a brief on either side of this case. Rather, NARLA-West
has produced a brochure written by Christa and Alan Reinach and edited
by Cliff Goldstein, explaining the role of the Ten Commandments in our
lives today, and a poster to publicly display.

The brochures and posters are now available to be distributed to
friends, family, colleagues and the press, and can be ordered from the
NARLA website: www.religiousliberty.info

This is a great time to talk to our communities about the Ten
Commandments and to engage in our constitutionally protected right to
display them. The “Written on the Heart” brochures and posters are an
ideal way to share the joy found in Christ.

Addendum: The Ten Commandments in the U.S. Supreme Court

Sometimes people are surprised to learn that, yes, even in the U.S.
Supreme Court there are artistic renderings of the Ten Commandments –
in fact two of them. How could the government display of the Ten
Commandments be unconstitutional if the Supreme Court itself displays
these documents?

The back of the Supreme Court (the East Pediment) is where you’ll find
the first example of the Ten Commandments. Most people don’t see this
side of the Court, but it is interesting indeed. The designer of the
sculpture on the East Pediment, Hermon MacNeil, stated that his goal
was to represent “such fundamental laws and precepts as are derived
form the East.” To do this, he designed a sculpture that groups
Confucius, Moses and Solon (the great Athenian law maker) together. To
their left and right are various allegorical figures representing
aspects of the law.

On the north and south walls inside the court are friezes that include
the great lawgivers of history. This is where we find the second
depiction of Moses with the Ten Commandments. Here he is one of
eighteen lawgivers all represented in equal proportion in chronological
order, with the Egyptian Pharaoh Menes first, Hammurabi, King of
Babylon, second, Moses third, followed by lawgivers all the way up to
Napoleon Bonaparte, and including Muhammad and Confucius.

Some people think there is a third display of the Ten Commandments on
the east frieze inside the Court. Here we find a single tablet carved
with the Roman numerals I through X. According to the sculptor, this is
intended to represent the Bill of Rights (the first 10 amendments to
the U.S. Constitution), not the Ten Commandments (hence it is
represented on a single panel, rather than on two tablets of stone).

In conclusion, the Ten Commandments do appear in two places in the
Supreme Court. In both cases, they are in connection with Moses, in one
case in a display of great lawgivers from the East and the second in a
chronological series of lawgivers. In neither case is a particular
version of the Commandments chosen.

We don’t know what the Supreme Court will say about governmental
displays of the Ten Commandments, but we can easily imagine that they
will focus on the context of the display and the intent, as they have
done in other similar cases. If so, they could rule that the displays
in certain contexts violate the Constitution, while in other contexts
– like those found in the Supreme Court building itself – they do not.

---

Adventism's latest offshoot GreatControversy.org

Here is an article from the right wing of the SDA movement. The first thing I noticed here is that in the area of offshoots they don't mention people like "Hope International" who produce "our Firm Foundation Magazine" or people like the "The Association of Creation 7th Day Adventists".



Adventism's Latest Offshoot, Pt. 1:
Break-Away
This article co-authored by Pr. Larry Kirkpatrick, Pr. Kevin D. Paulson, and Associate David Qualls on August 12 and 13 and published on August 13, 2004.
The Launch of Adventism's Latest Offshoot

First there was the Messenger Party, then the Seventh-day Adventist Reform Movement. In short order came the Shepherd's Rod. Herbert W. Armstrong launched the Worldwide Church of God, then along came the Branch Davidians. Next, the Brinsmead group, the post-Glacier View “Gospel Fellowship” movement inspired by Desmond Ford's attack on the sanctuary doctrine, then the Steps to Life home church movement.

Now comes “Mission Catalyst Network.”

A group of (former) Seventh-day Adventist Church employees, who insist that the structure has lost its evangelistic potential, are in the process of forming a break-away organization of churches which will be separate from the denomination that has so long employed them. They insist that they are

An association of churches that embrace the fundamental beliefs of the Seventh-day Adventist Church, are outreach focused, grace oriented, and fully committed to God (http://www.missioncatalyst.org/whatis.html, accessed 6:13 p.m. August 12, 2004 PDT).

However, their own published doctrinal mission statement belies this claim. Entirely absent from it is any mention of the investigative judgment, the remnant Church, the prophetic gift as manifest through Ellen G. White, or church standards. Claiming that as a Church they are the “Same cart” but with “new wheels,” the absence of these key features and the presence of others which we shall in this series mention, make clear that this is an altogether different “cart.”

Carefully endeavoring to cloak their true nature, this break-away group, Adventism's newest offshoot, claims it is not separate from us. Yet Scripture warns:

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us (1 John 2:19).

The exact sequence in which events were shaped is not always readily traceable. Some now involved in the Offshoot were terminated in March. The domain name “missioncatalyst.org” was registered in May. Adventist leaders met with Gladden in August. Whatever we may say about what led to what, the separation is here.
Ringleaders in Apostasy

The new offshoot has, of course, its own set of leaders. As the Spirit of Prophecy says, “Those who have been regarded as worthy and righteous prove to be ring-leaders in apostasy...” (Ellen G. White, Testimonies, vol. 5, p. 212). These people, who by and large have been respected as leaders in church planting in the denomination, believe that God is leading them to form a new organization of churches. Their non-profit corporation, their website, their own structures and plans, did not spring up 24 hours ago. It has been a long and laborious pathway to separation. Who are these people?

The names of those associated with this project which follow include both ringleaders in this apostasy and also those who have provided resource papers that hang on the offshoot's website.

The offshoot includes Ron Gladden, until recently employed at North Pacific and Mid-America Unions as Director for Church Planting (As identified by the Adventist Review online at Ron Gladden, “Building Castles for the Kingdom,” accessed August 12, 2004, 7:40 p.m. PDT).

Christianity at Bay, Spectrum article

Another Brillant article, yes true it is mine but I am not biased. When we look at the world today I wonder how anyone can believe that a strict fundamentalist Christian religion will ever become the dominant force in America.

Christianity at Bay

By Ron Corson
(March 2, 2005)

Lately, I find little with which I can agree as I read the opinion pieces in Time magazine. However, I recently read an essay that contained statements with which I could agree.

In her essay "The Battle Is Over, but the War Goes On" (Dec. 6, 2004), author Michelle Cottle posits the following : "Those who think they won on ’moral values’ may be in for a surprise." Cottle notes that liberals are "discombobulating" over the U.S. presidential election in November. But she attempts to comfort them with assurance that they "have the luxury of ignoring conservative America," with only rare intrusions. "Social conservatives, by contrast, cannot escape the world view of blue staters," she asserts. "Every time they go to the movies or turn on the television or open their child’s school books they’re reminded that traditional values ain’t what they used to be."

A cultural shift is happening in the United States, a shift away from traditional values to, as radio commentator Bill O’Reilly would say, a "Progressive Secularism." A media machine seems intent with an agenda for removing Christianity and many traditional values. Progressive Secularism is rampant in the educational system of the United States, from the lofty towers of universities to kindergartens.

Dr. Laura’s Morality Pacific Union Recorder

Principles of Congregational Ethics Dr. Laura’s Morality
By Mark F. Carr, Ph.D.

Dr. Laura bugs me! She is mean to her audience; no, she is brutal to her audience. In a matter of seconds, maybe a few minutes, she psycho-analyzes those who call in to her radio show. The advice she gives them usually revolves around ethics and morality of a personal sort.

...In ethics and morality, some of us have a tendency to boil things down to a few essential elements. Dr. Laura thinks, as do many others, that our concern for living life morally will be taken care of when we “do the right thing.”

I have to admit Dr. Laura bugs me too. But I also must admit she is frequently right. It is interesting that Dr. Laura who is a fairly religious Jew probably means more then just behavior when she says "now go and do the right thing". In Christian theology doing the right thing is to connect with God, the relationship that produces the actions which are also the right things.

Jesus and the Second Death

One of the frequent things you hear in SDA circles is that Jesus died the "second death". Like this latest example from the Conversations about God discussion list. From which I have effectively been banned because I contributed too much and the owner wanted the quieter members to have a chance. B.S. sums that up. Anyway this person writes:

Jesus came(it seems to me) to propitate us and appease our lack of knowledge of
the 2nd death requirement of sin/seperation that is the wages of sin.By taking
our well deserved 2nd death upon Himself ,He gives us a chance to have eternal
life with All of God and the rest of creation by his examples of what is life,
love and wisdom.His ressurection proves that He has the power to parent us all
the way to and through eternal life.
Conversations About God

Now in the past I have always pointed out to such people that first the Bible says nothing about Jesus suffering the Second Death and that the Second Death according to the book of Revelation which is the only place Second Death is mentioned says there is no resurrection from the Second Death. So there is pretty much no way Jesus could suffer the Second Death.

But recently I thought of something that is so obvious I don't know why I never used it before. To die the second death one must have lived the second life. Elementary isn't it. So let's review the standard Christ Judgment scenerio. A person lives their life here on earth. They die. According to several Bible verses there is a resurrection of the dead as the book of Daniel says some to everlasting life and some to everlasting destruction. Now if someone is resurrected by God that in itself is a supernatural event. As such it is also a second time of life. Hence the name second death which as Revelation points out is only for the wicked and from which there is no resurrection. So if Jesus died the Second Death...when did he live the second life?

Let's see em squirm out of that one!

Spectrum SS Commentary "Week of Destiny"

Did you ever wonder how myths and traditions get into the church. Here is an example from Spectrum Online Sabbath School Commentary. Week of Destiny By Ron E. M. Clouzet :

“Then came the following morning. With the loss of Jerusalem in mind, Christ mournfully made his way from Bethany to the temple again until he saw fig trees ahead. Hoping to get fed, he aimed for the only tree with leaves—clear evidence among fig trees that fruit must be already be available. To his surprise, there was nothing but leaves. Then, stepping back, he thought about the events that just transpired, looked up to the tree once again, and exclaimed, "May you never bear fruit again!" (Matt. 21:19 NIV). Jerusalem’s leadership provided high expectations but never delivered. And no one would get anything from them again.”


Now first of all most of us have seen fruit trees and we know that fruit does not appear before the leaves, that the fruit will not be ready at the time the leaves appear either. Flowers often appear before the leaves but in no fruit tree does the fruit ripen with the appearance of the first leaves of spring. It is true that Fig trees often produce a Breba crop in the early season as the Purdue Horticulture department fact sheet on figs says:
“Fig trees usually bear 2 crops a year, the early season ("breba") fruits being inferior and frequently too acid, and only those of the second, or main, crop of actual value.” Of course if there was winter damage it would not have a breba crop.

But for some reason this idea that a fig tree that has leaves is a sure sign that it should have fruit however absurd is repeated throughout the SDA church. I have recently heard it several times this year.

But most importantly for the Christian is that in the story which is only mentioned in Matthew and Mark it clearly says that it was not the season for figs!
Mark 11:13 Seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to find out if it had any fruit. When he reached it, he found nothing but leaves, because it was not the season for figs. (NIV)

The fig tree cursing is an interesting topic but cannot be really discussed when completely inaccurate observations are inserted into the story. A more reliable discussion of the incident is examined in the Expositor’s Bible Commentary where it says:

“12-13 This is one of the most difficult stories in the Gospels. It is not found in Luke. (Did he too have problems with it and omit it, or was it unknown to him?) Many modern commentators would just as soon it were not here at all. Rawlinson (p. 154) says that it "approximates more closely than any other episode in Mk to the type of `unreasonable' miracle characteristic of the non-canonical Gospel literature." Hunter (p. 110) comments: "With our knowledge of Jesus from other sources, we find it frankly incredible that he could have used his power to wither a fig tree because it did not yield figs two or three months before its natural time of fruitage." While rejecting the historicity of this account, Hunter finds the kernel of history in this story in the parable of the barren fig tree found in Luke 13:6-9. What was originally a parable has been changed into a factual story. Though admittedly difficult, the incident is not impossible. An important consideration is the position it occupies. It is one of Mark's interrupted accounts, in the middle of which stands the record of the cleansing of the temple. This is the clue to its meaning. Like the cleansing of the temple, the story of the unfruitful fig tree has to do with judgment.
The incident occurred on the way to Jerusalem from Bethany (v. 12), where Jesus had spent the night. He was hungry; and, noticing a fig tree, he went to see whether it had any figs on it (v. 13). Fig trees around Jerusalem usually leaf out in March or April, but they do not produce figs till June. This tree was no exception. It was in full leaf; but, as Mark tells his readers, there were no figs on it "because it was not the season for figs." It is this phrase that makes the story such a problem. Grant (p. 828) says Mark's explanation "only increases the problem, as it reflects on the good sense of Jesus." An easy solution is to consider the phrase a scribal gloss. But that will not do, because there is no textual evidence to support it. Also there is the fact that explanatory notes are a feature of Mark's style (cf. 1:16; 5:42; 7:3-4, 19, 13:14). It seems best to consider the phrase Mark's own insertion to explain to people not familiar with the characteristics of a fig tree why one fully leafed out would not have fruit on it.”

Spectrum "minister arrested for marrying Gays?

I just was looking at back stuff from the spectrum website and read this in an article there:

\blue{ Marriage: A Religious Liberty Issue?

By Lester N. Wright
(September 30, 2003)

...
In response, many people, including the U.S. president, have called for an amendment to the U.S. Constitution that would prohibit marriage between two people of the same sex. Government lawyers have ordered solemnizing this type of marriage to stop. In at least one local jurisdiction, the mayor was charged with violating state law by sanctioning marriages inconsistent with current laws. Furthermore, ministers of several religious persuasions have been criminally charged with violating the law by sanctioning and performing such marriages.


The arrest of a minister charged with performing a religious ceremony consistent with his or her religion should have gotten our attention. If a government can determine that one religious practice violates law and can arrest and charge a minister for performing that ceremony, then government can determine that ANY religious practice is illegal. The arrest of a minister for performing a marriage between two people of the same sex can progress to the arrest of a minister for preaching on a Sabbath not sanctioned by law.
http://www.spectrummagazine.org/conversationcafe/columns/040930wright.html

Now I have never heard of any minister arrested for performing the religious ceremony of joining two homosexual or Lesbians together. Further I have never heard of the "Government lawyers have ordered solemnizing this type of marriage to stop". They have ordered state officials to cease giving out marriage licenses but that certainly different.

Since the writer did not give any examples I don't think he knows what he is talking about and like many liberals making up something for his own purposes. But if I am wrong will someone please give me an example where a minister was arrested or even charged with criminal violation for performing a ceremony for gay or lesbians.

Tithe Change debate in Minnesota

Adventist Today Special Report

Revolutionary Change Debated in Minnesota

By John Thomas McLarty



Thursday, February 03, 2005. Enumclaw, Washington: In preparation for the April 17, 2005, Minnesota Conference Constituency Meeting, the conference constitution and by-laws committee has received from a congregation a proposal to change the way tithe funds are managed in the Minnesota Conference. The initial decision by the committee was to place the proposal on the agenda and to recommend against its acceptance by the session delegates. At the time of this writing, it is not certain whether the proposal will actually be included on the agenda for the constituency meeting.

The major changes called for in the proposal include: 1.) Qualifying two blanket statements that everything in the Minnesota Conference will be done in agreement with General Conference policies by adding the proviso, "unless otherwise expressly stated in these by-laws." 2.) Recognizing that local churches (instead of, or in addition to, the conference office) are appropriately designated "storehouses" for tithe. 3.) Requiring the conference to return seventy-five percent of tithe received from congregations to the congregations. This seventy-five percent would include the salary and benefits paid to clergy who directly serve the congregation. 4.) Explicitly stating that any use of tithe permitted in the administrative divisions of the church—conferences, unions, divisions, GC—is also a permitted use in the ministry divisions of the church—i.e. congregations. (For instance, since tithe funds are used to pay for secretarial and janitorial services in the administrative divisions of the church, local churches would be allowed to pay their secretaries and janitors with tithe.

Congregations do not often offer substantive input for consideration by conference constituency sessions, however, it is customary for conference administrators to invite input from their congregations in preparation for constituency meetings. Given the revolutionary political and financial implications of these proposed constitutional changes and the history of other congregational initiatives in North America, it is probable that leaders in all the relevant administrative divisions—Minnesota Conference, Mid-America Union and the North American Division—will work to prevent these proposals from being openly discussed on the floor of the session.



The full text of the recommended changes is given below.





Proposed Amendments to the Bylaws of the Minnesota Conference of Seventh-day Adventists

and the Addition of a New Article.



Motion #1: To amend ARTICLE II of the Bylaws of the Minnesota Conference of Seventh-day Adventist, as set forth below.

ARTICLE II RELATIONSHIPS

line
43 General Conference of Seventh-day Adventist. All purposes and procedures of this Conference
44 shall be in harmony with the working policies and principles of the General Conference of
45 Seventh-day Adventistsx, the North American Division, and Union Conference unless expressly stated in these Bylaws.



Motion #2: To amend ARTICLE XII of the Bylaws of the Minnesota Conference of Seventh-day Adventist, as set forth below.


ARTICLE XII FINANCE

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345 Policies. The tithes and all other funds shall be used in harmony with the financial
346 policies of the North American Division of the General Conference of Seventh-day
347 Adventists and the Union Conference except as permitted in these Bylaws and, in the case of
348 donations, its use shall be in harmony with the specifications of the donors and in accordance
349 with applicable state and federal laws governing the use of charitable contributions.



Motion #3: To add the following ARTICLE to the Bylaws of the Minnesota Conference of Seventh-day Adventist. The new ARTICLE shall be implemented and in full operation by September 1, 2005.



ARTICLE XX TITHE



In Malachi 3:8 God directs His people to bring "all the tithes into the storehouse". Notwithstanding any other article or provision in these Bylaws each local church or company is the collection point for tithe and each serves as an individual "storehouse".



Section 1. Handling of Tithe. One hundred percent of collected tithe shall be returned to the Conference Treasurer within 45 days of receipt. The Conference Treasurer shall account for these funds using Generally Accepted Accounting Standards and identify each storehouse from which the funds are received.

Section 2. Use of Tithe. A permitted use of tithe at the administrative level is a permitted use of tithe at the storehouse. As codified in the Working Policies of the North American Division (NAD) tithe may be used to sustain personnel who are directly engaged in soul-winning work and/or by people who serve in a supporting role. In addition, according to NAD Policy tithe "may be used for operating expenses" used by these personnel. In practice tithe is used and may be used for: salaries (pastoral, teaching, secretarial, janitorial); expenses associated with soul-winning and disciple making; operating expenses related to these activities.



Section 3. Distribution of Tithe. As a trustee and fiduciary of remitted tithe, and other assets belonging to storehouses, this Conference shall annually return to each storehouse a minimum of 75 percent of all tithe collected at that storehouse. Salaries and employee benefits paid to personnel hired by this Conference directly for each storehouse is included in this 75 percent. This Conference may retain a maximum of 25 percent of each storehouse’s tithe to cover expenses they incur in administering human resource functions and benefits for the sisterhood of churches, accounting, other administrative costs. The portion of the tithe this Conference retains may also be used to provide additional staff and resources for new missions or to provide additional support to churches and companies.

Section 4. Timing of Distribution. The portion of each storehouse’s tithe not expended for salaries and benefits paid to personnel hired by this Conference directly for each storehouse shall be returned to the storehouse within 60 days of receipt and an annual accounting of received and dispersed funds shall be provided to each storehouse by March 31st each year.



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The Post-Modern Acts of God
Presidential Address— Adventist Society for Religious Study
November 18, 2004
By: Jon Paulien

PostModernism: Reality or Label

In an article at www.secularpostmodern.org/res_art9.php4 , The Post-Modern Acts of God, Jon Paulien, gets into the subject rather deeply as it relates to the outreach to this group by the Seventh-day Adventist Church, moving from a feeling of "self-evident truth" that "Only an egotist would claim to have a handle on all truth," to a warning to the Adventist Church that "The Seventh-day Adventist Chruch, with its rigid structures and traditional approach to outreach, will certainly not be able to continue with business as usual in a post-modern world."

His use of the fortress and salt parable contrasts relative to a suggested paradymn shift in evangelizing was refreshing, relaying how salt mingles in food to the point that it is imperceptably except that it makes the meal taste better.

The challenge addressed in the article is in an era where absolute truth may be an oxymoron, he recommends I Cor 9:19-23 to "Become all things to all people in order that you might save some."

The challenge for the SDA church as he presents it is to become more relational in its evangelism so "Traditional Adventist evangelism" no longer "invests in public meetings, tries to move people to baptism in 3-5 weeks, and then breathes a sigh of relief for the next year or two."
From Bob Sands