The Ten Commandments Gleaner Online News

Recently on the Gleaner Online News section the following information was offered. I offer a few comments:

The Ten Commandments

Ten Commandments are a primary source of wisdom about the loving character of God. They are a promise of what God will do in the hearts of those who trust Him. They are spiritually focused and not meant to be used as a political tool to manipulate men.

The Ten Commandments are not about the loving Character of God as much as about how man should relate to God and to his fellow man. In none of the ten does not God even say that He loves man, in fact if it is about the character of God then God does not want man to have the freedom to choose between religious philosophies. If the 10 commandments is a transcript of God's character then God is very selfish, for man's benefit, yet not offering religious freedom. However the point of the 10 commandments is to teach man not to be selfish to actually care about others and have the wisdom to choose to serve a God who is real rather then a pretend God. The ten include promises as well as threats and are not totally spiritually focused as the last ones deal specifically with societal interaction. If the 10 are really a transcript of the character of God then they would not even be possible to use them to manipulate man. The 10 are actually a summation of all the laws given at Sinai, thus the two tables, one for the people and one for God as part of the covenant system common in the Eastern nations.

While most Jewish and Christian depictions follow the first understanding, modern scholarship favors the latter, comparing it to treaty rite in the Ancient Near East, in the sense of tablets of covenant.

Diplomatic treaties, such as that between Egyptian Pharaoh Ramses II and the Hittite King Hattusilis III, circa 1270 B.C.E, were duplicated on stone with a copy for each party, and the subordinate party would place their copy of the pact in the main temple to his god, in oath to the king (cf. Ezekiel 17:11-19). In a pact between a nation and its God, then, the Israelites placed both copies in their temple.

Practical Purpose of the Law

The Ten Commandments also have practical legal, moral and political implications that define the appropriate place for God’s law in society. While Americans desperately need spiritual renewal by having the law of God written in their hearts, if individuals resist allowing God to restrain evil in the human heart, according to Romans 13 the state will use external means to preserve safety and security.

The second paragraph contradicts the first paragraph now it has political implications whereas in the first paragraph it "not meant to be used as a political tool to manipulate men. " This is much more sensible aside from the contradiction as clearly the purpose of the 10 was an attempt to mold the new nation coming out from something like 400 years of slavery. It should also be noted that the law written on our hearts does not mean the 10, the meaning in the old testament and new is the entire law, the torah, which is summed up in loving your neighbor as yourself and loving God. Romans 13 is another subject all together so I won't deal with it here.

Misapplying the Law of God

Today's promotion of the Ten Commandments is fraught with potential difficulties and some irony as well.

First, there is disagreement as to what the Ten Commandments say and mean, with Catholics and Protestants numbering them quite differently.

Since the 10 were not named there are simple numbering differences As Wikipedia says:
Religious groups have divided the commandments in different ways. For instance, Catholics and Lutherans see the first six verses as part of the same command prohibiting the worship of pagan gods, while Protestants (except Lutherans) separate all six verses into two different commands (one being "no other gods" and the other being "no graven images"). The initial reference to Egyptian bondage is important enough to Jews that it forms a separate commandment. Catholics and Lutherans separate the two kinds of coveting (namely, of goods and of the flesh), while Protestants (but not Lutherans) and Jews group them together.

Second, there are those pushing the Ten Commandment Movement who would like Biblical commands to become the law of the land, an unconstitutional and divisive goal since people disagree about what the law essentially means.This

This idea of a movement which desires the 10 to be the law of the land is so tiny as to be of little significance. There are likely more who desire communisim then those of Reconstuctionist who believe:

Civil laws must be changed to match the Bible's moral rules. That is, anything that is immoral (by their standards) is also to be criminalized.

Due to the extreme nature of this group as well as their small amount of supporters it is at least now of no significance, generally these people are used as a method to scare people about religious zealots who are out to destroy other's lives.

Third, when it comes to the first table of the law of God involving acts of worship and devotion to Him, the government has no legitimate jurisdiction. And the irony is that those who are the strongest advocates of the Ten Commandment Movement argue that the Ten Commandments have been done away with and are no longer binding.

This is the kind of presuppositions that ruins many an argument. Very few Christians believe the 10 are done away with, they are still there still teaching still leading to Christ still pointing out sin. What these Christians refer to is the binding nature of obedience to the 10 commandments as a method of obtaining Salvation (which is in fact never really developed in the Old Testament). Very Christains say ok now you can steal and kill, they see the 10 as a moral teacher not as requirements for salvation. For many in the Adventist movement however by binding they mean you must observe the specifics of the commandment to keep the sabbath in the specific Jewish time frame they inconsistantly don't demand the type of Jewish strict obedience to the Sabbath commandment.

A Transcendent Code of Right and Wrong

"Just as the law can save no one—not even our beloved country—no state, no law, can change individual hearts and minds or stop criminals from carrying out their evil deeds. Public posting of the Ten Commandments will not achieve this result," says Gregory W. Hamilton, North Pacific Union public affairs and religious liberty director. "But they do serve as a model to demonstrate that there are rewards and punishments—traditional moral values that the magistrate must uphold in any civil society worth its salt."

Here is agreement among most Christians. The posting of the 10 serves moral needs. However there is also historical issues involved which deal with the laws of our Western nations having some relations with Jewish law as seen in the 10 commandments. Relating to the Christian principles that were involved with the establishment of the United States.

In a world of instability and moral ambiguity, the Ten Commandments remain a transcendent code of right and wrong. They are an eternal standard unmoved by cultural fads and political whims—a standard for all people because they were written by the Eternal God, the Creator of the universe.
Source: http:www.writtenintheheart.org

They are only an eternal standard for those who so choose to accept them as such, just as the first section of the 10 deals with man's relation to God, if no God is accepted the first of the 10 will have no meaning or importance. If the first section is questioned then the second half can be easily questioned. So in fact the cultural fads and political whims have a direct effect upon how people view the 10. The 10 are a transcendent code for those who accept a transcendent God. To those who don't accept transcendent God the 10 can still be important as history and cultural development for the Western World.

The Moral Minority - Gleaner Let's Talk Section

The following is from the North Pacific Union Conference Gleaner's Let's Talk where they post your responses to the issues that Steve Vistaunet raises.

Could it be that the time is ripe for individuals that go beyond the rhetoric to follow the practical good sense in a profound set of 10 principles some people call the Moral Code? Could Adventists be well known in their communities and in their places of work for those kinds of values?

What do you think? Are we mentoring our children to be moral leaders in their churches, communities and corporations? As a church, are we modeling anything that America wants or needs? How do we stand for the right without becoming moral bigots? Let's talk at www.gleaneronline.org .

My response follows:

Contrary to Marx, the idea of capitalism is cooperation for the best interests of those concerned. I offer something you want and you offer me something I want in exchange. As the Bible says the workman is worth his wage that is capitalism. As with everything greed and selfishness, jealously can destroy the cooperation.

Do I want to see the 10 moral principles of the 10 commandments followed? No Those commandments are contrary to the principles which this nation was founded. Freedom of choice means that I should allow someone to have another god before the Jewish or Christian God. To make their own idols and worship what they want, to work on the day they choose or even to tell their parents to take a flying leap. Those parts of the 10 Commandments were used in a Theocracy and we all know what happened to that Theocracy.

The first section of the 10 commandments can only be kept by freedom of choice and no other method will do. The last half can be legislated against and forced to some extent by society, though again freedom of choice can easily still violate all of those commandments as well. You described the 10 commandments are a moral code, as such it is only upon our consciences that they have an effect. We must choose to accept them as wise and order our life by them. This is why for so long they have been placed in public places, we are a country of freedom and upon that freedom voluntary acts of cooperation must be preformed for the good of society. As in Iraq one of the goals is to effect the hearts and minds of the people so too are the 10 commandments meant to effect our hearts and minds. We have duties to our fellow man and we have duties to our God should we accept that God as our God. Even in the 10 Commandments the first was to acknowledge God from that source all other commands derive authority and meaning.

Freedom of choice with the principles and power of Christ do not however inevitably lead to right. They lead to a restored relationship with God and that is at least on this old world as close to right as we can get.

5 Questions for God, Thought question from HS.com

From a Post on HeavenlySanctuary.com
Comes this interesting challange. Which I think is a challange for those who have views of God and Satan based upon what future events they expect.

"Some earnest skeptic challenges God (think "Bruce Almighty" here perhaps?), "Why won't you ever present yourself for inspection if you're really there?" God accepts the challenge but asks, "How would you know it was me?" as well as "If I do this I have to give the Opposition equal time." What results is that TWO "gods" show up and the challenger gets to ask them both the same 5 questions. (Or however many is appropriate for time / content.) Based on the answers he (and the audience) have to choose which one is which and / or which way they really like better. “

First we would have to set up some ground rules for this debate. Obviously if one of you is really God, the all powerful we could ask you to prove you’re God by a demonstration such as calling down fire to destroy your opponent. If you both explode then it is likely that you are both liars or at least equal in power. We could also ask that the one who is God could produce a new Planet and populate it and take us to visit it to prove it has been done. That however assumes that our question or request are the ultimate necessity and more important then a new populated planet. Somehow such requests would likely not be respected by a real God, or at least even if someone who is not God would likely convince us of the presumption of such a request for most any demonstration of God abilities.

As I would imagine someone impersonating God would also impersonate God’s answers so I suspect that one answer will be repeated by the opponent. In which case we must alternate our questions so that there is a possibility we can hear answers which do differ. For instance if our first question was to the real God the opponent would likely answer with an identical answer to God.

Question 1. Does God Kill

1. Yes
2. Yes

Question 2: In the Ten Commandments you state “Thou shalt not kill”, how can you kill if it is against your own law.

1. Because with the gift of life come responsibility for that life, the law against murder is foundational, it is not a law against killing in all circumstances.
2. Correct I agree completely.

You get the idea if one is trying to impersonate the other assuming the impersonator has a reasonable knowledge of the real God his answers would be substantially the same as God and the audience would have no clue.

However contrary to the thinking of many on HeavenlySanctuary.com the question is not about impersonating God it is redefining God. In which case the premise would have to be God and Satan being asked questions so that the audience can determine who the audience wants to accept as God. In that case, while God’s answer will always be truthful, Satan’s answers would reflect the beliefs of the audience. For example to the Islam audience:

Question 1: Are you Allah of whom our forefather Muhammad instructed us.

1. Yes
2. No

What if the premise was no longer impersonation but who is right God or Satan:

Question 1: You have told us in the gospel of John that you are love, yet you speak of hell please explain

1. Unfortunately you misunderstand the writings by which you think to know me. I cannot be enshrined in the words of some old peoples campfire stories of simple philiosphies. There is no hell you are merely being fed the imaginings of man. My love speaks to you personally you must listen and let it change you.
2. Unfortunately with revelation also comes the responsibility for interpretation. Love is more then an emotion, more then even commitment to another. Inspiration is required even to see my revelation and what hell may mean to you may not be the meaning of hell at all and even what you see as love may not really be love.

So Now can you tell me in the answers supplied which are the words of God and which are the words of Satan. I would not like to have to be in the audience to make such a decision. This may explain why the Bible does not spend any time on giving Satan's views as liars play a game by their own rules and our salvation is not through knowing Satan or his lies but rather on knowing God.

Could you ask 5 questions which could distiguish between truth and lies or truth and truth as the case may be?

Student' s speech restricted by school, AOK by ACLU

ACLU Says Pulling The Plug On Free Speech Was The Right Call

The valedictorian of Foothill High, Brittany McComb, decided to share her faith voluntarily at her graduation cermony. However, before she could get to the part that meant the most to her, Christ, her microphone went dead. Her speech was in no way endorsed by her school, however the school directly participated in censoring her free speech.

Once again the ACLU moves against our freedoms.

Question, will Liberty magazine deal with this issue. Probably not. If you can't wait for the quarterly issue to find out if this topic is discussed check out the North American Religious Liberty Association - West

Introductory comments on the Investigative Judment Lesson study

Earlier on an internet forum Clifford Goldstein stated that this quarter’s lesson would prove the Investigative Judgment using the Bible and not relying on Ellen White. Many on the forum were skeptical and I have been eagerly awaiting this quarter’s lesson to see how well he does.

As a starting point I will reference Kenneth Hart's Sabbath School class and material. Since this is about 4 pages which deal with the beginning presuppositions that are necessary to accept the Investigative Judgment I have placed it on a separate site as long posts don't work that well on this blog.

Read the Introduction to the Investigative Judgment, Gospel and 1844 Lesson Study which begins the 3rd Quarterly at your local SDA church.

Affect of the Blogosphere on Religious Denomination

A lesson on the importance of membership action is the conclusion of the following article:

The Evangelicals are Mellowing by E.J. Dionne

One other force was at work in this year's Baptist voting: the rise of the blogosphere.

Over the last few years, an active network of Baptist bloggers has opened up discussion in the convention and given reformers and moderates avenues around what Parham called "the Baptist establishment papers" and other means of communication controlled by the leadership. Thus may some of our most traditional institutions be transformed by new technologies.

Religious movements stay vibrant thanks to the complicated interaction of fidelity, reflection and reform. The evangelical world is going through a quiet evolution as believers reflect on the perils of partisanship and ideology and their reasons for being Christian. This will probably affect the nation's political life, but it will certainly affect the country's spiritual direction. My hunch is that even solid conservatives will welcome the change.

Washington Post Writers Group

Spectrum Blog - Why magazine editors should not run blogs!

This is a recent e-mail I received from the person running the Spectrum Blog over a recent comment I posted there. Here is their statement and my comment (though I have to reconstruct it as they edited my comment removing some information, contrary to the purpose of blogs to offer information to the readers):

Regarding the National Religious Campaign Against Torture, Adventist Pulpit writes:

"At a time when many are pushing for a more prominent public display of the 10 commandments I think it is valuable to see religous leaders seeking to do more than just show the commandments, but live the principles of the faith by calling for an end to US sponsored torture."

Preach it. And so should every American pastor.

Comment

Interestingly enough Bill O'Reilly had two of the signers of the group who placed the ad in the New York Times. One on his radio show and one on his TV show. He asked both these Reverends for examples or incidents of this US sponsored torture. Neither could answer that simple question.

It is also interesting that the guest editorial in the New York Times Op-Ed Contributor Detainees in Despair By MOURAD BENCHELLALI Published: June 14, 2006

Where in he writes:
In the early summer of 2001, when I was 19, I made the mistake of listening to my older brother and going to Afghanistan on what I thought was a dream vacation. His friends, he said, were going to look after me. They did — channeling me to what turned out to be a Qaeda training camp. For two months, I was there, trapped in the middle of the desert by fear and my own stupidity.

As it turns out this guys immediate family have been convicted in France of terrorist crimes. Maybe for a terrorist going to Afghanistan is a dream vacation.

They also refer to my comment on a different day that said:

Why does this ad say nothing about George W. Bush and his anti torture position. Seems biased contrary to it's so called non partisan statement in its mission statement

See http://cafesda.blogspot.com/

for a little more

The webmaster of the Spectrum Blog writes in an e-mail to me:

Hey Ron,

I appreciate you joining the discussion. Please grammar
check your posts before you add them as we try to make
reading Spectrum a reading pleasure. 

this guys immediate family
should be:
this guy's

his anti torture position.
should be:
anti-torture position?

it's so called non partisan statement in its
mission statement should be:
its so-called non-partisan

Also, we are cutting out the NYTimes post because
it doesn't directly follow as a comment on its post.
Politics and culture are messy and Spectrum is most
interested in how Adventism should respond to current 
events. Signing or not signing, fighting poverty or
not, we want to keep things pinned to the Adventist
context. There are plenty of places to 
discuss liberal vs. conservative values, the
Spectrum Blog is a place to think about the
application of Adventism in the world. 

If that's not clear, let me know. 

The Problem with this kind of editorial reworking is that for one thing it makes the commenter feel anxious about their comments "is this going to be good enough did I spell everything right is my grammar correct?" Most people who receive a comment like the above from the blog webmaster would likely never comment again, I would say that many would never even go back to that blog. As I have been dealing with internet forums for years I have a thicker skin. Having also had articles published by Spectrum's Website and Adventist Today I also know just how much time it takes to go though after presenting my thoughts to check the grammar, spelling and correcting extraneous or missing words. I am pretty sure that it is not something that most people who comment on blogs want to go through and not something that blogs in general make people do. If they wanted to provide a spell check and grammar check in the comment field I would certainly welcome such an addition but as of now, most including Spectrum Blog do not have such niceties. Now I don't know that Alexander Carpenter actually acts as an Editor for Spectrum Magazine but he certainly is acting like an Editor.

Second is the problem of editing out useful information because the information seems irrelevant to the editor. Such as the removal of the comments about the New York Times post. The perspective in the original blog statement presented the idea that the US sponsors torture. (...but live the principles of the faith by calling for an end to US sponsored torture.") The guest editorial is from someone who says they were tortured as the NYT editorial says:

"After two weeks in the American military base in Kandahar, Afghanistan, I was sent to Guantánamo, where I spent two and a half years. I cannot describe in just a few lines the suffering and the torture; but the worst aspect of being at the camp was the despair, the feeling that whatever you say, it will never make a difference."

This is particularly troublesome if the editor of the blog has a political ideology which they are trying to foster. In this case it is the further left liberal position that the U.S. is bad, we are torturing people and we as SDA's should join with these other Leftist groups (National Council of Churches) and a few non-combatant groups like the United Church of Christ. Chaired by former President Jimmy Carter who it appears from his comments the last couple years was not just sitting next to Michael Moore at the last Democrat Convention but has ideology that matches Moore and whose political ideology becomes more important then presenting accurate and truthful information.

Unlike a magazine, a blog provides a much freer environment to exchange information with links to countering views without the need to explain what the countering position is. Just click a link and see. Some like the webmaster of Spectrum Blog see little importance of a terrorist with family terrorist ties (of course the NYT does not mention that part) going on a dream vacation to Afghanistan and getting caught by military forces fighting the Taliban and claiming he was tortured by the U.S. What does that have to do with a comment on a blog that says the U.S. sponsor's torture? While others look at these things as pretty likely propaganda products with a Liberal Political agenda and wonder why a group that places an ad in the New York Time does not even mention any examples about the so-called torture that the U.S is supposed to sponsor and ignore the current administrations own statements made against the concept of torture.

So indeed Politics and culture can be messy but if you want Adventism to respond you have to have a framework of truth to respond to. The Spectrum Blog presented one side of an issue with no evidence to support it's claims. Yes the Adventist church is against torture yet so is President George W. Bush. Yes there is torture in the world but that was not what the Ad was addressing. It was not a call for North Korea to change their practices it was a call for the U.S to stop sponsoring torture, yet the U.S says it does not torture and there has been no evidence that they are sponsoring torture. So from the Adventist perspective do we simply accept accusations from certain Liberal Politico's or do we look at the evidence and question the evidence that is put forth by such groups as the NY Times. The issue is far more serious then a few missed hyphens or a missing apostrophe, if the Spectrum Blog wants to correct misspelling they have my blessing, if they want to censor comments because they don't know the issues they are sorely mistaken.

Call of the Wild: The Sounds of the Lyrebird

Not really related to the topics on this blog but this video is amazing. As it shows the Lyrebird mimicing other birds as well as sounds of man like a car alarm and saws and a camera shutter including motor drive. Link from NPR.Org blog

Spectrum's blog on on NRCAT torture ad

As I don't want to make this blog political I would just note that the organization which the spectrum blog suggests that Adventist denomination join is hardly non partisan as their mission statement say . It is lead by Jimmy Carter who has taken an extremely liberal political view, more so even then when he was President. Further the Ad is an attack upon American policies which the Ad thinks includes torture though such has not been determined by anyone it is based upon suggestions found in Liberal media like the Daily Koz. [Mission statement reading in part: As United States-based organizations, we feel particular responsibility for the abusive practices being utilized by the United States government today.] It also ignores Past and Present statements such as Bush's speech on the UN's anti torture month presented recently. Of course no sane person supports torture, though if pressed in difficult circumstances such as the possibility of saving hundreds or thousands of lives it may be considered exceptions don't make the rules.

Spectrum Blog 12 June 2006

Adventist Leadership Misses Torture (Statement)
Why did the Seventh-day Adventist church NOT join the significant statement in today's New York Times by the non-partisan National Religious Campaign Against Torture?

Or maybe those Baptists, Evangelicals, Sikhs and Nobel laureates Pres. Jimmy Carter and Elie Weisel are just getting too wimpy.

Check out Bush's speech:

President's Statement on the U.N. International Day in Support of Victims of Torture

United Nations International Day in Support of Victims of Torture

Today, on United Nations International Day in Support of Victims of Torture, the United States reaffirms its commitment to the worldwide elimination of torture. The non-negotiable demands of human dignity must be protected without reference to race, gender, creed, or nationality. Freedom from torture is an inalienable human right, and we are committed to building a world where human rights are respected and protected by the rule of law.

To help fulfill this commitment, the United States has joined 135 other nations in ratifying the Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment. America stands against and will not tolerate torture. We will investigate and prosecute all acts of torture and undertake to prevent other cruel and unusual punishment in all territory under our jurisdiction. American personnel are required to comply with all U.S. laws, including the United States Constitution, Federal statutes, including statutes prohibiting torture, and our treaty obligations with respect to the treatment of all detainees.

The United States also remains steadfastly committed to upholding the Geneva Conventions, which have been the bedrock of protection in armed conflict for more than 50 years. These Conventions provide important protections designed to reduce human suffering in armed conflict. We expect other nations to treat our service members and civilians in accordance with the Geneva Conventions. Our Armed Forces are committed to complying with them and to holding accountable those in our military who do not.

The American people were horrified by the abuse of detainees at Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq. These acts were wrong. They were inconsistent with our policies and our values as a Nation. I have directed a full accounting for the abuse of the Abu Ghraib detainees, and investigations are underway to review detention operations in Iraq and elsewhere.

It is often American men and women in uniform who fight for the freedom of others from tyrannical regimes that routinely use torture to oppress their citizens. From Nazi Germany to Bosnia, and Afghanistan to Iraq, American service members have fought to remove brutal leaders who torture and massacre. It is the American people and their contributions that have helped to rebuild these traumatized nations to give former victims hope.

A little over a year ago, American service members and our coalition partners freed the Iraqi people from a dictatorship that routinely tortured and executed innocent citizens because of what they believed in or what ethnic or religious group they came from. In torture chambers, innocent Iraqis were brutalized and the bodies of the dead left in mass graves. Throughout the past year, Americans have assisted the Iraqi people in establishing institutions to ensure accountability so that such acts do not occur again and to help victims recover.

Despite international efforts to protect human rights around the world, repressive regimes continue to victimize people through torture. The victims often feel forgotten, but we will not forget them. America supports accountability and treatment centers for torture victims. We contribute to the U.N. Fund for the Victims of Torture and support the work of non-governmental organizations to end torture and assist the victims. We also provide protection, counseling, and where necessary and possible, relocation in the United States. We stand with the victims to seek their healing and recovery, and urge all nations to join us in these efforts to restore the dignity of every person affected by torture.

These times of increasing terror challenge the world. Terror organizations challenge our comfort and our principles. The United States will continue to take seriously the need to question terrorists who have information that can save lives. But we will not compromise the rule of law or the values and principles that make us strong. Torture is wrong no matter where it occurs, and the United States will continue to lead the fight to eliminate it everywhere.

Ellen White Summit; Response to Jud Lake's Response

A Response to the Response of Jud Lake (Ellen White Summit 2005)

By Ron Corson

Recently I was informed that Jud Lake posted a response to my blog article on his Ellen White 2005 Summit presentation. My original blog article is found at: http://cafesda.blogspot.com/2006/02/ellen-white-and-canright.html
The Audio of the Summit found at: http://ellenwhitesummit.foxyresearch.com/
Jud Lake’s Response is found at: http://personal.southern.edu/~jslake/Ron%20Corson%201.htm
Since my response includes both Jud Lakes and my original comments it is longer then I wanted to place on this blog so I have linked to it here

I am grateful for his response because the purpose of this blog is to discuss various elements expressed in SDA news, events and media. Too often articles or events are produced and no one really has a chance to discuss the contents except for occasional short letters to editors or conversations with friends. However with the Internet technology it is now possible to examine information in depth far easier then ever before. However there is still a lack of involvement from the leadership in the SDA church dealing with the regular membership. So though what follows is probably not going to make Jud Lake too happy, I do appreciate his desire to discuss the issues even though he chooses to respond on his own web site rather then comment on the article on this blog. To make things easier I am going to place my original article first except for the quotes from Canright’s book, which will be placed later in response to his response. This may sound confusing but they will be color-coded. This way it will not be necessary to go back and forth between my original post and his response. He makes several charges against my statements and it is necessary to refute them. For instance he claims that I criticize his logical fallacies without giving any examples of such fallacies, he also asserts that though I said there was false material in his presentation he can not see where I showed anything to be false. So I will show in more detail what I meant in my original post.

Update:
Reading another blog Adventist Pulpit, which is something you should all be doing, I discovered the following comment from Jud Lake:

1. I have read Ron’s response to my material and agree that it contains much more depth. I respect that and will gladly respond.

   Comment by Jud Lake — June 11, 2006 @ 5:52 pm

Bible Study: Inductive Study, Analysis and Application

This is something I wrote for the Sabbath School Class I attend, it is a simply outline of the steps I use in Bible interpretation.

Inductive Study, Analysis and Application

By Ron Corson

In the practice of study whether of the Bible or any other written document there are three general steps. They are Inductive Study, Analysis and finally Application. Inductive Study can be defined as reading the text as if reading it for the first time without using preconceived ideas about the text. This is easier said then done for most Christians. We have heard numerous references to most Bible stories and many other texts in the Bible. What others have said about a particular text may or may not be correct however, so the point of Inductive study is to determine first of all what is the text trying to express. We are not trying to use the text to make a case for something though later we may; we are not trying to read something into the text though later we may see something consistent in the text with something else in the Bible. To some up Inductive study is: a term of logic by which a text of scripture is interpreted without pre-judgment using only the text and context and drawing logical conclusions.

Analysis is comparing and contrasting other information in the Bible. By comparing what Scripture says overall and making logical conclusions based upon the overall information. Study Bible Notes are frequently written from the perspective of analysis often comparing something in the text mentioned with a text elsewhere in the Bible or adding cultural information. Analysis using someone else’s analysis again may or may not be correct. So analysis has to compare what the Inductive Studies logical conclusion was with your own analysis or someone else’s analysis and drawing the logical conclusions. Analysis is best usually done with the aid of many sources of information because in analysis since a great deal of information has to be processed it is easy to overlook something. Something one commentator may overlook another may see and still another may offer something which disproves another’s conclusion. It is the realm of analysis that there are the greatest differences within Christianity, there are over 10,000 Protestant denominations recent numbers suggest over 33,000 however the definition of denomination may be misleading.

Application is taking the logical conclusions from the Inductive study and analysis and finding an application to one’s personal life. This can be a very subjective situation where the analysis may have general application it may have a particular application for the individual or it may not. This is the practical side of Christianity where the information learned from the Bible is applied to each individual’s life and relationship with God.

The Ten Commandments Twice Removed Part 1

The Ten Commandments Twice Removed, Review Part 1

What becomes readily apparent after a quick perusal of this book is that the subject is not really the Ten Commandments, not about whether they should be allowed or disallowed in public places and not about the historic importance of the Ten commandments to Western law. The intent of this book is to show that one is not keeping the Ten Commandments unless the denomination is holding to the Seventh day Sabbath. In other words the Jewish Sabbath is an eternal covenant with all Christians, it was giving before sin entered the world and it will remain after sin is removed from this world and we are in the world made new.

While this book has a price of $9.95 most who come into possession of this book will get it free. It's use is that of being an evangelistic tool to lead people into the Seventh-day Adventist church. This is in keeping with many of the historic patterns of evangelism used within the SDA church. That is mainly to point that the beliefs of the SDA's are the correct beliefs and showing that the SDA church meets the book of Revelation's words about the being the remnant who keep the commandments of God.

The assertion in the book from which the title 'Twice Removed" comes from is the idea that some Christians hold to the view that it is the Ten Commandments which were "nailed to the cross" which apparently led to the institution of Sunday gatherings for Christians. With time the Sabbath was transferred to Sunday, the book will quote Sabbatarians of the 1800's to show the Sabbath still stands however. The second removal is based upon the current move to remove plaques and monuments and the removal of the Ten Commandments from public schools. I personally don't know of any public schools that had the Ten Commandments let alone had them removed but there are certain states which have authorized their posting and others which considered posting them but due to threatened lawsuits withdraw the idea. The book does not cover this but you can read about it at the Anti-Defamation League website. 

The book is very scarce with facts for its assertions and gives little evidence about how they arrive at their positions. The book works upon the assumption that no one will question their assertions and interpretations thus the book is poorly footnoted or referenced. And as can be seen in the link below many of their interpretations are very questionable.

While in the critique which is linked here I have real problems with many of the interpretation the book gives. This does not mean I do not value the Sabbath or gathering on the seventh day of the week. I hold to the postition that each should be convinced in their own mind. I do not condemn Sunday keepers for their attendance on Sunday nor do I condemn those who promote the idea of Seventh day Sabbath keepers. I don't think these are issues that should divide Christians and that is why I have taken the time to present the problems with the book mentioned. I have placed my critique on a seperate page because I use a lot of quotes from the book and at the time of this writing there are seven pages and it is not complete yet. I am trying to catch the main issues raised yet not get to carried away.

To view the link click here.

Ten Commandments Twice Removed - Shelton & Quinn

As way of introduction to the book The Ten Commandments Twice Removed by Danny Shelton and Shelley Quinn I am posting some links to other's view about this book and the campaign. I will later post several quotes from the book and my responses to some of the books content. First this from the Washingon Post By Michelle Boorstein

Washington Post Staff Writer
Saturday, May 6, 2006; Page B05

Are you one of the 135,000-plus people who were handed a free book about the Ten Commandments this week at a Washington Metro stop or street corner?

If so, you were part of a $3.2 million campaign by an Illinois-based radio and television ministry that calls itself a "mending broken people network." You also got a glimpse into what religious people across the spectrum are calling the Ten Commandments movement, a patchwork of groups who agree that America needs to focus on Old Testament morals -- but not much else.

The movement is a response to recent legislation and court rulings across the country relating to the display of the Ten Commandments, which appear in the Books of Exodus and Deuteronomy and are considered by some to be inappropriate for display on public property. The loose coalition includes evangelical Christian, Baptist and Pentecostal leaders, as well as Seventh-day Adventists and Jews, all of whom would like to see the Decalogue get a little more respect.

It also includes the Three Angels Broadcasting Network, the organization that started giving away 270,000 copies of the book "Ten Commandments Twice Removed" on Thursday. The ministry, a growing offshoot of the Adventist church, said it hoped to draw 10,000 people last night and today to "Ten Commandments Weekend," an event at the D.C. Armory featuring music and sermons about the commandments.

Ozark Angel blog writes:

Bearing False Witness Door to Door

I hear a knock on the door last Saturday, and standing before me on my front step are two gentlemen carrying paperback books about the Ten Commandments.

The younger of the two men did all the talking while his buddy, an older man who was obviously nervous about this door-to-door thing, stood smiling throughout his partner's narrative. I was treated to a well-rehearsed story that began . . .

"Of course, you know that the ten commandments have been removed from the schools and that the pledge of allegiance is no longer recited in the classroom. There has been a concerted effort to remove prayer and God from the schools . . . "

It was somewhere about here when I interrupted the young man to tell him that I was a public school teacher…

And Sellers S. Crain, Jr. of Rivergate church writes the following:

Interestingly, I received a copy of a new book last week, The Ten Commandments Twice Removed, written by Danny Shelton and Shelley Quinn which takes advantage of the recent publicity afforded the ten commandment controversy. While on the surface it pretends to be defending the right of the Ten Commandments to be displayed in public places, it appears that its real main purpose is to promote the observance of the Sabbath Day. The authors claim that the Ten Commandments were not part of the "ordinances" that were nailed to the cross (Colossians 2:14), and therefore the fourth commandment "Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy" is still bound on Christians today.

The authors of this volume cite many New Testament references, quotes from Jesus Himself, in their attempt to prove their thesis (Matthew 5:18; 21-23; 27-28; 24:15-24). In doing so these authors fail to understand that while Jesus lived and died under the old law, He fulfilled that law upon His death and ushered in a new covenant. Jesus said that "For assuredly, I say unto you, till heaven and earth shall pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law until all is fulfilled (Matthew 5:18). This means that the law, which included the Ten Commandments, would stand only so long as it remained unfulfilled. After His resurrection Jesus said, "These are the words (those in the text just cited; emphasis added) which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me" (Luke 24:44). The three divisions of the Old Testament mentioned are inclusive of the entire Old Testament and were those recognized by the Jews. Jesus said all of the law would remain in effect until it was fulfilled in its entirety, and upon His resurrection He said that had been accomplished.

Quoting from the prophet Jeremiah, the author of the book of Hebrews made it clear that the Old Testament covenant in its entirety had been abolished, and it had been replaced by a more comprehensive covenant which included all people (8:6-13). Other New Testament passages can be cited to prove the cessation of the old covenant (Ephesians 2:12-16; Colossians 2:14; Hebrews 9:15-17; 10:1-4). These passages are proof positive that the entire old covenant was nailed to the cross when Christ died, therefore we are no longer under the Ten Commandments.

This being said, I must add that I am not opposed to the Ten Commandments being displayed in public places. They have long been a symbol of this nation's legal heritage and of its desire to be a nation founded upon the principle of law. With many others in our nation, I do fear the erosion of our constitutional rights as Christians, and I am concerned that there is an all out assault upon Christianity alone today. No other religion today in this nation is confronted with the constant bombardment of negative publicity that is being directed at our founder, Jesus Christ, and at the religion He founded (Matthew 16:13-19). "And do this; knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep; for now our salvation is nearer than when we first believed" (Romans 13:11).

10 Commandment Advocates Scare Adventist Help Blog

Mark Bishop at The Adventist Help Blog Has an article on the Ten commandments. As is often the case with the more reactionary elements in the Adventist church he fears that those trying to retain the 10 commandment plaques and monuments which have stood for decades in this country are trying to enforce Sunday keeping laws upon American society.

While celebration and public reminders to keep all of God’s Ten Commandments can be good, there’s a very serious undertone taking place that’s associated with this movement that is troubling to many other God fearing and Commandment keeping folks.

And that reason is the Ten Commandment Day Commission has also introduced legislation into Congress to supposedly protect our religious freedom by legally forcing you to acknowledge, or remember, that God is in America. Those bills already introduced are The Constitution Restoration Act of 2005, S520 in the Senate and HR1070 in the House of Representives.

The Constitution Restoration Act of 2005 (H.R. 1070, S. 520) has been introduced to use the constitutional power of Congress to limit the jurisdiction of federal courts to protect the right of government agencies and officials to acknowledge God. In short, this commission and others want the government to be able to legally enforce you to keep the Commandments of God.

Folks, there are many in our country who strongly believe that the disasters of Katrina and other events could be warnings from God that our country is possibily being punished, or ignored, by God due to our immorality and the turning away from God’s principles, His Commandments. But is it necessary to pass laws to force you and I to obey God?

How would you feel if the government told you that Sunday is the chosen legal day for everyone to attend church and those who disagreed with “that” law would be fined or worse? Would not God be more pleased to see us love and obey him by our faith as --evidence of our love for the Lord and concern to our fellow men?

--

If Mr. Bishop bothered to read the legislation he would find his concerns to be without merit. Constitution Restoration Act of 2005 (Introduced in Senate) S 520 is actually very important because it attempts to restrain Judicial activists from basing law interpretation upon other then US law and constitution. Something that is becoming more common by the more liberal judges. The legislation says:

SEC. 201. INTERPRETATION OF THE CONSTITUTION.

In interpreting and applying the Constitution of the United States, a court of the United States may not rely upon any constitution, law, administrative rule, Executive order, directive, policy, judicial decision, or any other action of any foreign state or international organization or agency, other than English constitutional and common law up to the time of the adoption of the Constitution of the United States.

The only mention of God in the legislation is designed to protect government agents from being penalized for having a belief in a sovereign God.

Sec. 1260. Matters not reviewable

`Notwithstanding any other provision of this chapter, the Supreme Court shall not have jurisdiction to review, by appeal, writ of certiorari, or otherwise, any matter to the extent that relief is sought against an entity of Federal, State, or local government, or against an officer or agent of Federal, State, or local government (whether or not acting in official or personal capacity), concerning that entity's, officer's, or agent's acknowledgment of God as the sovereign source of law, liberty, or government.'.

That such legislation has become needed is a sad commentary on the state of our society but there has clearly been an assault upon religious freedom by Secular Progressives. There are a few examples of this in an article I wrote several years ago dealing with some loss of rights in Canada, but it is not restricted to the Canadian issues.
Free Speech Canada, Intolerant for the sake of Tolerance

Response to Just Pastors blog article

From the Blog Just Pastors last article on their Da Vinci Code series:

The basic challenge The DaVinci Code presents to Adventists is an alternate, yet very similar, conspiracy theory. The Adventist version is that the Emperor Constantine mixed paganism with Christianity, replacing the Sabbath with Sunday observance and a personal relationship with God with the priesthood, the end result being the Roman Catholic Church. Dan Browns version is the Emperor Constantine removed paganism from Christianity by having the Church proclaim Christ as fully divine and fully human while excluding all others as heratics. (There’s the whole Mary Magdaline thing too, but that won’t be an issue for most Adventists.)

So who’s right? The problem is that they both are. If Constantine was bent of paganism, why did he get the church together at Nicea and have them proclaim that Jesus was God; and if he was trying to exclude paganism, why did he incorporate so many pagan traditions into Christianity?

This is a troubling perspective because neither view is right and both views are wrong. Constantine brought Christian leaders together but he did nothing to cause the outcome of the counsels other then after them reinstate some of the Arians. Further Sunday had for many years been the day for gathering of Christians, Saturday was also held but due to the Jewish nature of it there was a somewhat natural feeling that the Christians did not want to be seen as Jews who rejected Christ or even as the Jews who accepted Christ yet demanded that people had to obey all the Jewish laws (the Ebionites). Constantine did not give the idea of Priesthood in place of a relationship with God it was an out growth of Roman Catholic teachings based upon the idea of the sacrament of Holy Orders and the mass.
Which confers special spiritual powers to the Priest. The canon law established nothing at these councils about the sacrament of the Priest or the mass but dealt with limiting where bishops could be:

Canon II.

The bishops are not to go beyond their dioceses to churches lying outside of their bounds, nor bring confusion on the churches; but let the Bishop of Alexandria, according to the canons, alone administer the affairs of Egypt; and let the bishops of the East manage the East alone, the privileges of the Church in Antioch, which are mentioned in the canons of Nice, being preserved; and let the bishops of the Asian Diocese administer the Asian affairs only; and the Pontic bishops only Pontic matters; and the Thracian bishops only Thracian affairs. And let not bishops go beyond their dioceses for ordination or any other ecclesiastical ministrations, unless they be invited. And the aforesaid canon concerning dioceses being observed, it is evident that the synod of every province will administer the affairs of that particular province as was decreed at Nice. But the Churches of God in heathen nations must be governed according to the custom which has prevailed from the times of the Fathers.

I won't go into the problem with Dan Brown's view as it is pretty well documented today just how historically wrong it is. Certainly Constantine did not get the leaders together to declare that Jesus was God, even the Arian's believed that Jesus was divine though they asserted He was not of the same substance as God since He was begotten of God at some point in ancient times. I am not certain that David Hamstra the auther of the above article really ever read Dan Browns book.

Traditions whether Pagan or otherwise are not inserted by some act of conspiracy they are incorporated through time based upon peoples beliefs. After Luther told the people of his church that it was ok to take both the bread and the wine rather then just one which the church had previously allowed many were afraid to take it. Many were afraid to touch the bread even after they were convinced, the old ways held a powerful influence upon them. So it was with Paganism human beings rarely completely change it is a process.

Just Pastor's continues:

So does this mean that Adventists should give up on protestantism and restorationism? I don’t think so; in fact I don’t think we should give up on conspiracy theory either. But we do need to stop thinking of the conspiracy in terms of the human players involved.

The Bible tells us the real conspirator is Satan, who works through many different human agencies, even people who think they are doing the right thing. If fact, it’s just as possible for him to use a good person to bring about evil (e.g. King David) as it is for God to use an evil person to bring about good (e.g. Joseph’s brothers). This realization frees us to evaluate history by the Bible and within its moral/truth framework to protest the workings of Satan and accept the workings of God within the same person or organization.

There is really no conspiracy against God there are choices people make, believe or unbelief, trust or rejection. All human consequences come from the choices that we make. We can create our own religion or distort a religion we are not pawns moved by the great Demon Satan. We are quite capable of doing evil apart from the manipulation of Satan. As long as we are not held under some kind of conspiracy theory we will be able to evaluate history without the need to see angels and demons in everything.

Dan Brown and most Adventists do indeed both have conspiracy theories and both are based upon false information that is accepted uncritically because it pleases the holder. Both are demonstrably false yet often held on to just as tightly because it is their belief and that belief is sacrosanct. The scholarship of the 1800's, the theology of the 1800's is not anymore authoratative then that of the 1100's. For many Adventists their religious progress ended at the turn of the century.

New Feature - List of Adventist Blogs

You will notice something new on this blog. On the right hand side you will find a list of links to Adventist Blogs. This is the most complete list of Adventist blogs I have seen on the Internet. Of course it does not have every Adventist blog nor even every Adventist blog I have found. The list is made by my personal choice as to the significance of the blogs. Blogs, which offer personal diaries type information, did not make it to my list nor do blogs that have no activity in the year 2006. Believe me I understand the bloggers frustration and why someone may feel that no one reads their blog what is the point of continuing if no one reads. So Congratulations to all you bloggers who have stuck with it. If you have a blog you would like listed please let me know with a comment or an e-mail to NewProtestants@yahoo.com

The list of Adventist blogs is provided for you to visit those blogs as I will also do. I intend to offer my perspective on the articles on their blogs here as well as in the comments on their blogs on interesting subjects. As Blogging is a rather cooperative effort hopefully we can build a creative and substantive network of blogs.

For those who may want to also put the blogs on their website here is the list:

http://cafesda.blogspot.com/

http://anewsabbathschool.blogspot.com/ Sabbath School for a New Generation

http://www.adventistpulpit.com/ Adventist Pulpit

http://abundantrest.org/ Abundant Rest

http://oregonadventistpastor.blogspot.com/ Oregon Adventist Pastor (Greg Brothers)

http://adultsabbathschool.blogspot.com/ The Adult Sabbath School Class (Greg Brothers)

http://apokalupto.blogspot.com// Apokalupto (David Hamstra)

http://www.jjblogs.com/justpastors// Just Pastors

http://ryanbell.typepad.com// Intersections - (Hollywood Pastor)

http://paulwhiting.blogspot.com/ Paul Whiting

http://kb-adventist.blogspot.com/ KB-Adventist

http://charleeb.blogspot.com/ Adventist Thoughts

http://www.adventisthelp.com/blogger_7/ Adventist Help

http://collegian.wwc.edu/blogs/ WWC Collegian Blogs/a

http://charleeb.blogspot.com/ Adventist Thoughts/a

http://melodytan.blogspot.com/ Aussie Adventures/a

http://tribeoflevi.blogspot.com// Tribe of Levi/a

http://advennturer.blogspot.com/ Doug's Advenntures

http://www.deebarizo.blogspot.com/ Adventures in Campus Ministry

http://arnoldgamboa.com/ Better Than Life

Barna poll on the Da Vinci Code

Barna has an interesting poll out recently

Perceived Value of the Content
Among the adults who have read the entire book, one out of every four (24%) said the book was either “extremely,” “very,” or “somewhat” helpful in relation to their “personal spiritual growth or understanding.” That translates to about 11 million adults who consider The Da Vinci Code to have been a helpful spiritual document.

Changing People’s Beliefs
The study also explored whether or not the book caused people to change some of their religious beliefs. Among the 45 million who have read The Da Vinci Code , only 5% - which represents about two million adults – said that they changed any of the beliefs or religious perspectives because of the book’s content. …

“On the other hand,” the researcher continued, “any book that alters one or more theological views among two million people is not to be dismissed lightly. That’s more people than will change any of their beliefs as a result of exposure to the teaching offered at all of the nation’s Christian churches combined during a typical week.”

While 5% is a relatively small percentage when you deal with 5% of 45 million it adds up and it becomes significant that the ideas in this book changed their beliefs or religious perspectives based upon very faulty information presented in the book. Probably the biggest problem is Dan Brown’s assertion in introduction of the book that the book is based upon facts apart from the mystery crime elements of the story.

Right after the Acknowledgement the book says:

FACT:
The Priory of Sion-a European secret society founded in 1099-is a real organization. In 1975 Paris's Bibliothèque Nationale discovered parchments known as Les Dossiers Secrets, identifying numerous members of the Priory of Sion, including Sir Isaac Newton, Botticelli, Victor Hugo, and Leonardo da Vinci.
The Vatican prelature known as Opus Dei is a deeply devout Catholic sect that has been the topic of recent controversy due to reports of brainwashing, coercion, and a dangerous practice known as "corporal mortification." Opus Dei has just completed construction of a $47 million World Headquarters at 243 Lexington Avenue in New York City.
All descriptions of artwork, architecture, documents, and secret rituals in this novel are accurate.

It is also peculiar that 24% said the book was at least somewhat helpful in their spiritual growth or understanding. Mainly because the book offers no Christian perspective of spirituality. Dan Brown's pagan [site loads slowly] views are offered and a distorted Catholic view through the Opus Dei characters

To end on a good note the Book and movie seems to lead Catholics back to the Bible according to the latest Zogby poll

The survey of Catholics nationwide also found that the movie The Da Vinci Code will drive more Catholics than not to the scriptures. A plurality – 42% – said that after hearing about the book and movie, they intend to seek truth by studying the Bible more closely.

A couple of my articles on the Da Vinci code can be found at:
A Christian Aspect Review of Dan Brown’s The Da Vinci Code

Dan Brown’s The Da Vinci Code -If it’s Tuesday this must be a conspiracy- humor

Shaun Groves Impressed by Adventist Youth

Contemporary Christian Music Artist Shaun Groves writes on his blog about Adventist youth

My thinking about this kind of church peaked this past weekend when I spent time with a small denomination Seventh Day Adventists. It was a youth event. Something I rarely do, especially alone with my acoustic guitar. But these kids were so different from other kids I've spent time with. They listened. And afterwards they talked with me for over an hour - about Napoleon Dynamite, Mormonism, favorite classes etc. But they also asked great questions and, without being show offs at all, could incorporate scripture and and life experience into the conversations about their beliefs and how they differ from other denominations. They spoke naturally about community service and volunteering at church. I can't describe it well; they were just mature, more mature than most youth I meet and definitely more mature than I was at their age - maybe even at my age today.

He continues with some interesting thoughts take a moment to read them.
http://readshlog.blogspot.com/2006/01/event-driven-church.html

One things Adventist have done well is to instill Biblical knowledge, this is especially noticeable when one visits other Christian discussion forums. The problem which all Christians have in common is finding meaning for their lives through application of scriptural knowledge.

More from the Ellen White Summit presentations

Moderator’s question:
“How do you respond to people who use Deut. 18:21 to disqualify Ellen White in the light of her vision where an angel told her that some present at Battle Creek would not die before Christ returned?”

George Knight response:
“That’s one I want to take. We’re finding a lot of people are finally realize that Ellen White had a lot of prophecies that never come.. came true. And we used to teach …Deuteronomy that when a prophets prophecy did come true then you know they were a true prophet. What these people fail recognize is the Bible is full of unfulfilled prophecies. You take a look at the old testament woooph most of the prophecies in the huh prophets are unfulfilled. Why? Ellen White gives the answer in Manuscript 4 1883. That all of God’s prophecies are conditional. If Israel would have behaved itself and done God’s will then those old testament prophecies would have been fulfilled. And I personally believe if God’s Church would have done God’s will we wouldn’t be here. But all prophecy and this is Ellen White herself, all prophecy is conditional prophecy and maybe the best article in all the articles of the 7 volumes of the SDA Bible Commentaries in volume 4 on conditional prophecy. Read it. That is a jewel.”
--Question and answer period (part 8) 2005 Ellen White Summit beginning at 24 minutes into session.

When you hear this statement of George Knight you realize why elsewhere he said that he did not hold to any old tests for a prophet.

“You know why I believe Ellen White’s a prophet I don’t go for any of the old tests number one she points me to Jesus number two she points me to the Bible. That’s it! She never points to herself…I can’t get off on that.”
--From Using and Interpreting Ellen White by George Knight {Part2} 2005 Ellen White Summit 33 minutes in

George Knight’s position is not much different from the White Estate’s position. First let us refresh our memory about what Ellen White actually said:

“But we were yet to pass through another severe trial. At the conference a very solemn vision was given me. I saw that some of those present would be food for worms, some subjects for the seven last plagues, and some would be translated to heaven at the second coming of Christ, without seeing death. Sr. Bonfoey remarked to a sister as we left the meeting-house, “I feel impressed that I am one that will soon be food for worms.” The conference closed Monday. Thursday Sr. B. sat at the table with us apparently well. She then went to the Office as usual, to help get off the paper. In about two hours I was sent for. Sr. B. had been suddenly taken very ill. My health had been very poor, yet I hastened to suffering Clara. In a few hours she seemed some better. The next morning we had her brought home in a large chair, and she was laid upon her own bed from which she was never to rise. Her symptoms became alarming, and we had fears that a tumor, which had troubled her for nearly ten years, had broken inwardly. It was so, and mortification was doing its work.” Vol. 2 Spiritual Gifts p. 208

I was shown the company present at the Conference. Said the angel: “Some food for worms, some subjects of the seven last plagues, some will be alive and remain upon the earth to be translated at the coming of Jesus.” Vol. 1Testimonies p. 131

When EGW saw her prophecies fail she created the idea of all prophecy as conditional:
Selected Messages Book 1, page 67, paragraph 8

Chapter Title: An Explanation of Early Statements

“The angels of God in their messages to men represent time as very short. Thus it has always been presented to me. It is true that time has continued longer than we expected in the early days of this message. Our Saviour did not appear as soon as we hoped. But has the word of the Lord failed? Never! It should be remembered that the promises and threatenings of God are alike conditional.”


Now the White Estate has published a response to those who bring up this quote. They say that if people had truly repented and followed God, He would have come and fulfilled the prophecy, but since they didn’t God in mercy extended time. However where do we get the information that if they had followed God, He would have come? We get it from Ellen White, thus she is allowed to explain why her false prophecy was not correct. This is complete circular reasoning. If you allow a so called prophet to explain away why their predictions do not come to pass, there will never be anyway to test any predictive prophecies. In fact we will be forced to hold to scores of today’s so called prophets because we have no way to test a prophet anymore. We will be reduced to saying that person must be a prophet because he or she points to the Bible and points to Jesus. Yet it is questionable with Ellen Whites presentation that all prophecy is conditional that she is pointing to the Bible at all since she is actually refuting such verses as Deuteronomy 18:20-22.

Is it wise to put the Biblical principles against those of Ellen White. If God had ever truly meant for all prophecy to be conditional why would the statement in Deuteronomy even have needed to be recorded. The Bible record would have to be held responsible for the rejection of prophets who were merely giving conditional prophecies.
“But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death." You may say to yourselves, "How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD?" If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.”(Deu 18:20-22 NIV)

Yet the Bible instead of treating all prophecy as conditional gives the principles that create some prophecy as conditional. A useful illustration is found in Jeremiah:

“If at any time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down and destroyed, and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned. And if at another time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be built up and planted, and if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do for it.” (Jer 18:7-10 NIV)

Another is found very early in the Biblical record when Israel was offered the choice between blessing and curses.
“See, I am setting before you today a blessing and a curse-- the blessing if you obey the commands of the LORD your God that I am giving you today; the curse if you disobey the commands of the LORD your God and turn from the way that I command you today by following other gods, which you have not known.” (Deuteronomy 11:26-28 NIV)

Jeremiah who had his own struggle with false prophets does not produce the idea that all prophecy is conditional but he notes that since bad things happen all the time someone predicting bad things will be right quite often but it is only God’s prophets who are able to predict the good things also. Ellen White’s prediction of being translated would in most anyone’s estimation be considered a good future prediction.
Jeremiah 28:8-9 says:
“From early times the prophets who preceded you and me have prophesied war, disaster and plague against many countries and great kingdoms. But the prophet who prophesies peace will be recognized as one truly sent by the LORD only if his prediction comes true.” (NIV)

There is not any better prophecy of peace than to be with Jesus at His coming.

Determining the accuracy of a professed prophet is part of the Biblical tests of a prophet. Unfortunately many SDA’s don’t want people to use that test. Many will quote Ellen White saying that Christ would have come ere this if only the people had done their work. So using the ever present circular reasoning they completely destroy the Biblical test by saying if what the supposed prophet says does not come to pass, then the supposed prophet is allowed to give an explanation as to why the prophecy did not come to pass. If you allowed the supposed prophet this ability there is not ever going to be a prophet anywhere or any time with a false of presumptive prophecy because they will simply explain it away. However the Bible does not offer up that option, so we can be objective about testing a prophet. Finally if all prophecy is conditional maybe God is not preparing a place for us, maybe Jesus is not going to return. Maybe even the condition of God’s love and acceptance will not be met and the whole Gospel is meaningless because we have not met some unlisted conditions.
--Ron

Ellen White and Canright

The Ellen White Summit indeed has some interesting material. But there is a good deal of false information in there also. As time allows I will deal with some of the problems that come up.

The first is from one of the lesser presenters at the summit. I don't think I could possibly find time to deal with all the logical fallacies he uses in his presentation on "Ellen White and her Critics" Jud Lake tried to point out the logical fallacies of the critics but really mainly points out his own fallacies. A big one he uses is the A priori fallacy he says that the critics use because they begin with the assumption that she is not a prophet. Yet for some reason his own fallacy and that of all the presentors that EGW is a prophet are not considered to be A priori fallacies.

But here is what Jud says at about 34 minutes into his presentation on Ellen White and Inspiration (part 4):
“Ellen White experienced numerous times the Prophetic model, dreams and visions. But some have taken this to an extreme, a number of the people in her day took this to an extreme and this is where the critics have made a big mistake. They’ve taken.. pushed this envelope I should say of this model. And gotten into what we discussed already, verbal dictation. Listen to Canright, remember who Canright is famed critic he wrote in his critical book on Ellen White I shared with you in my last presentation. Listen, every line she wrote he believed whether in articles letters testimonies or books she claimed and this is my bold she claimed was dictated to her by the Holy Ghost and hence must be infallible. This I think contributed to his great fall or some say he more took the position when he turned against the Adventist church but either way this is what he is saying here, he saying she claimed this well I think it is already very clear she did not claim this. Dr. Newborn touched on this…”
-- Jud Lake Professor of Preaching and Adventist Studies at he School of Religion, Southern Adventist University. “Ellen White and Inspiration” 2005 Ellen White Summit Gladstone Oregon

Compare what Canright actually wrote as found in chapter 3 at: http://www.ellenwhite.org/canright/egw16.htm


“Her Writings All Inspired by the Holy Ghost
Now read what Mrs. White claims for her writings. Defining her position, she says:

"In ancient times God spoke through the mouths of prophets and apostles. In these days he speaks to them by the Testimonies of his Spirit" (Testimonies, Vol. IV., p. 148; Vol. V., p. 661).
Here she places herself on a level with all the Bible writers, both prophets and apostles. (See Heb. 1:1,2.) Any one who rejects or opposes her writings is branded as a rebel fighting against God. Thus she says:

"If you lessen the confidence of God's people in the testimonies he has sent them, you are rebelling against God as certainly as were Korah, Dathan and Abirum" ("Testimonies," Vol. V., p. 66).

Here she classes herself in authority with Moses. From this it will be seen that her followers have made no greater claims for her than she made for herself.

She claims that every line she writes, even in a private letter, is directly inspired by God - "the precious rays of light shining from the throne" (same book, p. 67). Of her own words she says: "It is God, and not an erring mortal, that has spoken" (Testimonies, Vol. III., p. 257). She states over and over that those who doubt or oppose her are fighting against God, sinning against the Holy Ghost. Thus: "fighting the Spirit of God. Those. . . who would break down our testimony, I saw, are not fighting against us, but against God" (p. 260).

Again she says:

When I went to Colorado, I wrote many pages to be read at your camp meeting. . . God was speaking through clay. You might say this communication was only a letter. Yes, it was a letter, but prompted by the Spirit of God, to bring before your minds things that had been shown me. In these letters which I write, . . . I am presenting to you that which the Lord has presented to me. I do not write one article in the paper expressing merely my own ideas. They are what God has opened before me in vision - the precious rays of light shining from the throne" (Testimonies, Vol. V., pp. 63-67).

Notice that she claims to be simply the mouthpiece for God. They are not her words, but God's words, the same as the Bible - God speaking through clay. All through her writings designed especially for her own people may be found expressions of this kind. In her books prepared for the public, however, all these expressions are carefully omitted.

It is not Canright who said that Ellen White’s words must be infallible it was his response to the followers of Ellen White who saw her as infallible and he gives examples:

Canright writes also in chapter 3:

Now read this from G.A. Irwin, many years president of their General Conference. On page 1 of a tract entitled "The Mark of the Beast", he says:
"It is from the standpoint of the light that has come through the Spirit of Prophecy [Mrs. White's writings] that the question will be considered, believing as we do that the Spirit of Prophecy is the only infallible interpreter of Bible principles, since it is Christ through this agency giving the real meaning of his words."

It is possible that by the term “Spirit of Prophecy” Irwin means the Holy Spirit in which case his statement would be accurate but considering the common SDA usage of the term Spirit of Prophecy to refer to Ellen White’s writings we are left to take it whatever way we may prefer.

In all this however we know that Canright did not have some wooden literal view of Ellen White being verbally inspired. As he wrote in chapter 9:

Mrs. White's visions ceased about the time of the change of life common to women. While she still had visions, she claimed that much that she "saw" went entirely from her mind at the time. Months, even years later, when she met a brother or a church that needed a "testimony," the part relating to these all came vividly to her mind, she said. She would then write out this portion of the forgotten "vision."

This worked very well till years after her visions ceased. Finally this could not be stretched further. Then her revelations had to come in a different way; by a voice, by dreams, by "impressions," by some one on "authority" speaking, and the like. The following expressions, taken from the last volume of her "Testimonies for the Church," Vol. IX., published in 1909, are examples of this. Page 13: "I was instructed." Page 82: "Instruction has been given me." Page 65: "In the night of March 2, 1907, many things were revealed to me." The room, she said, was very light. Page 66: "Then a voice spoke to me." Page 95: "The angel stood by my side." But she had no vision as formerly. Page 98: "Instruction has been given me." Page 101: "In the night season I was awakened from a deep sleep and given a view." Page 137: "In the night season matters have been presented to me." Page 195: "At one time I seemed to be in a council meeting." The expression, "I have been instructed," occurs over and over in these later alleged revelations, just as the expression, "I saw," does in her earlier writings

Ellen White Summit 2005

If you haven't seen the DVDs and weren't at the conference (Ellen White Summit 2005) you may want to check out what the four speakers (George R. Knight, Craig Newborn, Jud Lake, and Jon Paulien) had to say November 11-12, 2005 in Gladstone, OR.

http://ellenwhitesummit.foxyresearch.com

The page listed above was put together from portions of the PDF file outlining the summit doings and audio extracted and processed for clarity from the DVDs. The audio on the DVDs is low quality, so if you think the MP3s available for download on the site are bad . . . that is nothing compared to the 60 Hz hum (at times half the volume of the speaker) in the original background.

Needless to say, ordering the 4 DVDs (app. 8 hours of presentations) for $60 (and $9+ shipping) is not recommended. :)

I think that everyone should listen to all of these.


JS

GC President wimps out

Just saw this from the GC President about the Danish cartoon controversy. Impressive that he criticizes the cartoonist use of their free expression. Yet says nothing about the Muslim violence and destruction and killing as they express their views. Quite a difference drawing pictures versus burning buildings and killing people...who should the GC president address? Oh of course the people who he knows won't kill him, the editorial cartoonists. What a leader!

GC President Responds to Muslim Caricature Controversy

Following an increase in global tension surrounding the publication-in newspapers in Denmark and other European countries-of caricatures that some Muslims worldwide have found insulting, Jan Paulsen, world president of the Seventh-day Adventist Church, issued a call for the responsible use of the right of free expression.

"It is unfortunate that the publication of freely expressed opinions . . . has inflamed relations among people," Paulsen said in a statement released at the Adventist world headquarters.

"As Seventh-day Adventists we support and encourage the responsible use of the right of free expression," he added. "Inherent in that responsibility is also being mindful of not insulting others and causing injury to their beliefs and practices. Opinions can be shared without the color of disrespect, and debate can take place but without offending the beliefs of others."

Drawing on many years of experience in intercultural ministry in Africa and around the world, Paulsen noted the importance of valuing diversity and of building harmonious communities, while at the same time acknowledging the importance of free speech.

"My work as a Seventh-day Adventist leader has taken me to many nations. I witness the value of diversity and the fact that Christians build the community alongside adherents of many other religions and worldviews," he said. "And I recommend that living by the principle of the Golden Rule, which asks us to do unto others as we would wish them to do unto us, would inspire us to live in harmony with all people, be free in expressing our views, but also maintaining courtesy and respect to all."

More than 25 million people worship weekly in Seventh-day Adventist congregations in 203 countries and territories around the world. --Adventist News Network.

http://adventistreview.org/article.php?id=335

ProgressiveAdventist.com is now found at
Http://NewProtestants.com/sda.htm