Doctrines define relationship in the church

There may actually be some hope that the Seventh-day Adventist church is waking up from their self induced delusions. Recently the Adventist Review in an article my Andy Nash actually admitted that Adventists are leaving the church due to not believing Adventist doctrine. Up until now he points out people left, and yes they left in a big way, over relationship issues. He writes of the past this way:

Past studies indicated that if someone left the Adventist Church, it was almost always because of bad experiences or relationships, not because they changed their beliefs.

In a 1998 report, “Why Do Adventists Quit Coming to Church?” prepared by the Center for Creative Ministry, Adventist researcher Monte Sahlin wrote: “Three out of four leave for reasons having to do with their relationships with people and groups, while less than one in five leave because they no longer believe in some teaching of the church.”

Then he goes on to write about a new study:

“The study, “Former Seventh-day Adventist Perceptions of the Seventh-day Adventist Church,” was conducted in 2011 by Southern Adventist University’s School of Business under the direction of marketing professor Lisa Goolsby. Goolsby was approached by Pastor Jerry Arnold and member Ken DeFoor of the Collegedale, Tennessee, Community church about exploring the reasons members are leaving the church. More than 600 former Adventists from throughout the U.S. were invited to answer questions online; 190 participated.

When asked why they quit attending the Adventist Church, 49 percent of respondents cited disagreement or disenchantment with Adventist doctrine, while another 10 percent cited their own lifestyle choices being out of harmony with church teachings. Only 38 percent of responses cited a bad personal experience or “other” reason for leaving. (The respondents were able to cite more than one reason.)

When respondents were invited to give open-ended feedback about their departure from the Adventist Church, 68 percent of the comments concerned Adventist doctrine, 47 percent concerned judgmental attitudes or other problems within the church, 31 percent concerned cofounder Ellen G. White, and 15 percent concerned legalism. (The respondents were able to submit multiple comments, which were then categorized.) “

Now for some analysis. First that last paragraph above. 68% of comments concerned Adventist doctrine and another 31% Ellen White. As most know Ellen White as a prophet is included in the 28 fundamental beliefs of Adventism. So of the comments received it would be more telling to say that 68+11= 79% we related to doctrines of the Adventist church.

In fact it really appears that those claiming relationship issues as the previous reason for Adventists leaving the Adventist church is probably inaccurate as well. So if we search for the 1998 report “Why Do Adventists Quit Coming to Church?” we would probably find a similar gloss over the real reason for the relationship problems. But unless you are connected to some Adventist school you are not likely to find the 1998 report. So I can't really comment on its methodology or conclusions. But there is an article that seems to draw heavily from the report.

The Seventh-day Adventist church puts out a study guide, the Ifollow Discipleship Series in their lesson plan entitled Member Care: Reconnecting they write the following:

Here are some depressing statistics: In most Adventist Churches across North America, typical Sabbath attendance is equal to about 50 percent to 55 percent of the total num-ber of members on the books. A number of churches have completed a name-by-name analysis of their entire membership list and found that typically a third of the members have not attended even once in the past 12 months. “Shut-ins” were not counted in this percentage.

A survey of active members found that 72 percent report that they have a relative or friend who used to be an active member of the Adventist Church but has since dropped out. Dr. Roger Dudley, director of the Institute of Church Ministry at Andrews University, followed a random sample of 13 and 14-year-olds from Adventist families for 10 years, until they were 24 and 25 years of age. About 65 percent had left the Church over those ten years and only 10 percent had returned later, or a net loss of more than half of our young people. It is estimated that there are one or two million former, inactive and “fringe” Adventists in North America and about 500,000 active members who attend at least once a month. Why do we have such a big dropout problem? Ten major studies have been completed by Adventist researchers since the mid-1970s and much has been learned that can provide some answers. Most grew up in the Adventist faith, and were not converts from evangelism. The most common “dropout” is an adult under 50. The median age of drop- outs is 40. The median age of members is 51.

A survey of the general public conducted by the Center for Creative Ministry asked: “Have you ever heard of or read about the Seventh-day Church?” Seven in ten of those over 50 said “Yes,” but only 58 percent of those 30 to 49 years of age; 35 percent of those 18 to 29; and a disappointing 10% of those under 18. Clearly, the Adventist Church

is not connecting with new generations of Americans, even those raised in its own families and schools. And it’s likely that some of the above reasons, especially worship and music style, have something to do with it.

Another place where we’re clearly failing to minister effectively is when people face storms in their lives. Dropouts are three times as likely as active members to be divorced and remarried, and four times as likely to be divorced and single. They are more likely to report stressful life events and moves from one home to another. Yet surely the church is the place where someone facing a major life crisis can most expect to be truly heard, held, and comforted!

Six in ten former members had a non-member spouse as compared with 28 percent of the active members. Did members make a concerted effort to make friends with the non-member spouses, without making it look like they only wanted to add them to the books?

Here are some reasons these former members give for why they left the church: “There is too much politics in the Adventist church [and] church leaders are more concerned with the number of baptisms than the people baptized. The church has too many rules and regulations. Adventists think they can work their way into heaven, and the church is too organized.” They did not feel accepted by the other church members. “The coldness of church members influenced them toward leaving the church, also bigotry, hypocrisy, and judgmental attitudes.” They may express a lack of Adventist friends, and a lack of visits from church members and pastors.

A significant number leave because of dissatisfaction with local church leaders; there is a perception of a lack of sympathy by church leaders for their problems.

In other words, no matter what the life crisis or the reason for leaving, the bottom line is, dropouts are people who never bonded with the core group of their congregation. Two out of three, while they were active members, did not have an office or volunteer role in the congregation. They report few visits by church members or pastors, even while they

were still regular attenders.

Three out of four leave for reasons having to do with their relationships with people and groups; while less than one in five leave because they no longer believe in some teaching of the church. Often it’s for reasons that have already been outlined above. Problems arose which were not addressed, and the person just slipped away. The sad fact is, what most

likely happened back at church is that people shook their heads, assumed the person “wasn’t really committed,” and continued to bring names up as prayer requests, but did not do anything.

Here is the key, in their analysis 75% leave over relationship issues, the last paragraph above says that the reasons are mainly those outlined above and can be summed up as people at the church assuming the person “wasn’t really committed”. Why would they be assumed to not be committed? Because much of what they classed as relationship issues were doctrinally related and the relationship strain came because the person questioned or didn't tow the line of necessary belief in some perceived Adventist fundamental. Take a look at the reasons listed earlier in the quoted material from Ifollow. Let us list those reasons:

1. There is too much politics in the Adventist church

2. Church leaders are more concerned with the number of baptisms than the people baptized.

3. The church has too many rules and regulations.

4. Adventists think they can work their way into heaven,

5. The church is too organized.”

6 They did not feel accepted by the other church members. “The coldness of

church members influenced them toward leaving the church, also bigotry, hypocrisy, and

judgmental attitudes.”

7. They may express a lack of Adventist friends, and a lack of visits from church members and pastors.

There is something that seems to underline most of those reasons. The politics of the church is about agreeing with the church, that will affect how well you fit in the church if you are in or out. Leaders concerned with numbers instead of dealing with issues and questions is again related to doctrine. Rules and regulations are supposedly Biblically derived so again doctrinal. They did not feel accepted, which is again the politics of being in the right group, the one that assumes they have the truth if you are not part of them then those who think they have the truth treat the outsiders coldly. And lastly Adventist friends lacking because they have not been taken into the political power in the church that is endorsed and given power by the leadership of the Adventist church which naturally support loyalty. From my experience it does appear that since the 70's it has been doctrinally based relationship problems that moved people out of the Adventist church for the most part.

Now let me give you a very recent example of how this works using my favorite example of foolish Adventism. Stephen Foster on Atoday.com newest article.

It makes about as much sense (to me) for a Seventh-day Adventist Christian to challenge the inspiration and authority of Ellen White as it does for a Calvinist to challenge the theological authority/bona fides of John Calvin, or a Lutheran of Luther. Yet some members of the voluntary Christian sect or denomination which was co-founded by White—whose commentary on the Bible and whose exegeses and interpretation of the Bible are the result of a prophetic gifting of God—routinely reject her messages (and/or reject the reality of her gifting).

Contradictorily and ironically, some of these individuals believe that they have been given the same or similar gifting; and that, since they live in the present, their gifting is representative of present truth—even though their “truth” may deny or contradict some of what White wrote in great detail.

I view all such claims as bogus at best; and, quite frankly, actually have a much stronger negative opinion of them.

More candidly in my opinion, the ultimate purpose of all efforts to discredit Ellen White is the purposeful destruction of the Advent movement generally, and of its interpretation of the Third Angel’s message in particular.

(Now, of course, I could be wrong; but I’d wager everything that I’m not.)

Basically SDA’s and those who are not SDA have differences with regard to interpretations—and implications resulting from interpretations—of the books of Genesis, Daniel, and The Revelation. This is no different at all than the differences between Adventist conservatives and liberals.

So what are we to do when we fundamentally disagree with what ‘we’ represents? Can those who fundamentally disagree remain together? Can a divided house somehow remain standing?
 

Inspiration provides the following guidance:
“Christ's servants are grieved as they see true and false believers mingled in the church. They long to do something to cleanse the church. Like the servants of the householder, they are ready to uproot the tares. But Christ says to them, ‘Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest.’ He then continues the Ellen White quote.

Now is there any question how such a person will treat those with questions about Ellen White or what the meaning Adventists put on the 3 angels messages or any other interpretation? Such people are tares, at best they are not committed at worst they are agents of evil seeking to destroy the church, after all loyalty to the church is the key to their thinking. To disagree with a doctrine, to acknowledge an old earth or realities of evolution etc is to attempt to destroy the SDA church.

It is rather simple doctrines inform how one relates to others. The remnant mentality, the we have the truth and unless you accept it you are evil will lead to broken relationships. But possibly the Adventist church is beginning to realize just what they have produced with all of the Stephen Fosters that they have filled their churches with. To late for millions of us though...then again just realizing they have a problem is far from actually fixing the problem.

Symposium on Atonement shows no change for Adventism.

Adventist Today Website gives us a report on the recent event in Loma Linda University where the Adventist Theological Society (ATS) held a symposium upon the subject of Atonement theories.

The article is written by someone who agrees with the Substitutionary theory of the atonement and keeps calling the ATS centrist. In one paragraph he writes the following:

Moskala was careful to point out the positive contributions of each of the theories.  He stated that Christ took the penalty of sin upon himself, citing 2 Corinthians 5:21.  “When we come to Jesus, He took our sin and gives us His righteousness.”  Jesus became a curse for us (Galatians 3:13).  The presenter  cited Romans 1:16-18 and mentioned that both the Righteousness of God and the Wrath are revealed.  “God’s truth is paradoxical.  God’s love and justice need to be related.”  He mentioned the Biblical Flood as an example of God’s grace and justice. He also stated that “Substitution should be taken seriously,” and that the death of Jesus was a punishment for sin.  Jesus experienced God’s wrath.  Isaiah 53:4-6 presents Calvary as a punishment—Jesus was “pierced for our transgressions. … Here is the plain image of the Substitution. God’s character is revealed, with both love and justice included in the law.  The God of the Bible is a God of love, truth, justice, freedom and order.”

Notice his most affirmative statement that Jesus experienced God's wrath. For that he uses a foreshadowing statement found in Isaiah, not anything from the New Testament actually written after the event. The reason for that of course is that there is not one verse in the New Testament where it says that Jesus experienced the wrath of God. And you really can't take all of the things that Isaiah says in those sections as affirmations about Jesus, read it some time and see.

Dr. Jiri Moskala also says that Jesus took the penalty of sin upon himself. But what is the penalty of sin? Well it is the second death as recorded in the book of Revelation. The specifics of the second death is that it is eternal death...no resurrection. Jesus was killed by human means, the Crucifixion was a human torture and death devised and preformed by humans.  He was also resurrected from the dead on the third day. Of course if you listen to Adventist they will claim that Jesus suffered the second death, though they have no Biblical reason for this but as the article state the ATS holds Ellen White as inspired. As their statement says: "“Adventists believe that God inspired Ellen G. White. Therefore, her expositions on any given Bible passage offer an inspired guide to the meaning of texts without exhausting their meaning or preempting the task of exegesis..." It does not take much to realize that the statement is a fiction and that the dependence on Ellen White very much stops exegesis. The whole second death thing is ample proof of that. In fact if you go back to the texts that Moskala uses 2 Corinthians 5:21 which is the paradoxical conclusion to a rather convoluted argument Paul makes it is very much equivalent to a proof texting technique. But we still sin and we aren't all that righteous so just what does that even mean. It is hard to take such things serious as if they are meant to tell us that Jesus paid in one person the penalty for all people. This idea that Jesus paid the penalty of sin denies the very nature of forgiveness. Because you don't have to punish someone to forgive them. Jesus' Message was that of forgiveness not penalty.  The substitutionary atonement theory degrades the gospel. It encourages pagan ideas about God and it is not something that Paul taught. It was not an accepted idea until the 11th century and it grew out of Anselm's Satisfaction theory of the atonement.

It is sad that such poor analysis is preformed by the ATS. But as long as they must agree with Ellen White they have no other choice because their inspired prophet was very much a Penal theorist.  Which could well lead to a second article on why the followers of Graham Maxwell ignore what Ellen White actually said and so often claim she was not penal or substitutionary in her view of the atonement. In my view Adventism is doomed to failure and innovation because of Ellen White. No one who continues to accept her as an inspired interpreter of the Bible can ever disagree with Ellen. Even though Ellen was very much a person of her times and should never be given the authority that Adventism has done with such things as calling her the Spirit of Prophecy, pen of inspiration, messenger of the Lord etc.

And a fool shall led them

This blog has often addressed the foolishness of one of the Atoday.com bloggers, Stephen Foster. But this time I would like to address a comment from another Atoday blogger and the brother of Stephen Foster, Preston Foster. Here is what he wrote in the comment section of the article Post Script: Jack’s Last Words on Old Earth Creationism
  
"How is it logical to supply Bible reproof texts about Jesus that validate that He is the truth, if the Bible itself is an unreliable source?
If the Bible's account of creation is not reliable or is an analogy, would not the rest of the Bible, particularly an account of the immaculate conception, the virgin birth, and God as Man be more suspect?  Jesus believed the 10 Commandments (and came to fulfill them for us, then to die in our place for our transgression of them).  
As Stephen Foster pointed out earlier, the 10 Commandments begin, "And God spake all these words saying . . ." (Exodus 20:1) and continue "Six days shalt thou labor and do all thy work.  But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God . . .   For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it" (Exodus 20: 8-11).
Which part of that is fallible?  If any part of it is fallible -- and the law defines sin, what, then, is sin (or is there sin at all)?  This is not a slippery slope, it is a ski jump."
This is so revealing about the kind of people that fundamentalist are. First line why quote the Bible if it is an unreliable source. This presumes that to be reliable the Bible must be 100% accurate but we know it is not. It presumes that the Bible is a dictation of God, which it is not. It presumes that of the many writers all had the same level of understanding which they did not. And it presumes that one cannot draw conclusions from what is written if not everything written is completely accurate. All these presumptions are errors.

Next line:  "If the Bible's account of creation is not reliable or is an analogy, would not the rest of the Bible, particularly an account of the immaculate conception, the virgin birth, and God as Man be more suspect?"

This is kind of an amazing statement as the Bible says nothing about the immaculate conception. That is a Roman Catholic doctrine:

 "The Immaculate Conception is a dogma of the Catholic Church maintaining that from the moment when she was conceived in the womb, the Blessed Virgin Mary was kept free of original sin and was filled with the sanctifying grace normally conferred during baptism.^[1][2]  See Wikipedia

Though he does not know too much about what he is talking about his point is that if the creation myth is not accurate then there can be nothing supernatural, there can be no miracles even by God's direct action in coming to humanity. Is there really any logic to such a position? Not really it is the same thing as his first line where his presumptions are assumed factual, logical or reality.


This is the kind of dialog that is presented by the fundamentalist Adventist. There is an immense divide in the Adventist church. Where some of the most foolish philosophies are embraced and propagated. The question is, can those who don't know what they are talking about be persuaded that they in fact don't know what they are talking about. The answer is likely no. This would explain why religion seems to always divide, Denominations split and form a new group and it splits the presumptions remain and the self evaluation disappears as the traditions become set in concrete.


We will never find the answer in our knowledge because even those who self evaluate cannot see themselves clearly enough to overcome all of our presumptions. Yet I still feel that we should be able to see obvious foolishness, is that really too much to ask?

Is Universalist a dirty word

A Facebook friend pointed me to the following article by Brian McLaren after I had mentioned writing something on universalism: His blog article begins with the following question:

Q & R: Are You a Universalist? Or a Whig?

Here's the Q:

After reading "Why did Jesus, et al, cross the road," I wanted to ask your thoughts on universal salvation, since you seemed to "dance around" this idea throughout the book. Is Christianity the "have" and other religions the "have-nots?" I would love it if you were to write a book on the subject …

Now I would like to be able to say what his answer was but he really danced around the issue. Even at the end of this article he says this is his best brief answer:

“My critics love to say that I'm evading (dancing around) the issue. I wish they could come to understand that it's much worse than that. I'm rejecting the whole paradigm that defines the issue as it does.”

Now I have no problem rejecting an entire paradigm. I do it on a lot of things. But to reject does you no good unless you define what you do believe. In the case of Universalism there is not really some deep theological presuppositions involved.

Universalism: a : a theological doctrine that all human beings will eventually be saved

There is no real need to go into what saved means or original sin, hell or judgment. To say that he cannot give a one word answer means that he is afraid to actually reveal his beliefs. Now there are good reasons to not want to admit that all will be saved the critic will say, “so you believe Hitler will be saved”. People don't like that...they like the idea of most everyone saved but not everyone there is always some characters from history that they don't want God to grant salvation to.

McLaren writes:

“Universalism is one of three "theo-political parties" that arose in an era that shared a dominant assumption: the Christian faith is primarily a solution to the problem of original sin, which is a condition that dooms all humans to eternal conscious torment in hell. "What is Christianity for?" All three parties agreed: to get as many souls as possible out of hell and into heaven after death. Jesus mattered because belief in him was the ticket to heaven. Based on this shared assumption, the three parties differed on the scope of Jesus' saving-from-hell work.”

From the Adventist prospective none of that really works. We don't believe in original sin. We don't believe in eternal conscious torment in hell. Of course Adventists don't believe in universalism either. But that is based more upon judgment then upon original sin or a God granted gift of torture. In fact it is not true of the Unitarians of the 1800's who actually popularized the term universalism. See the Wikipedia article

He goes on to say:

“For us,
A) The Christian faith is about the good news of God proclaimed and embodied by Jesus Christ and affirmed, explored, and applied by the apostles, rooted in the Scriptures, and empowered by the Holy Spirit.
B) Salvation derives its meaning in the Bible from God's liberation (salvation) of Hebrew slaves in Egypt. It is about God's ongoing work in creation to liberate from slavery, oppression, exploitation, lust, greed, pride, and all other forms of sin and evil.
C) Christianity is a movement of people joining God in the healing of the world, beginning with ourselves, following the way of Jesus.

“In that sense, salvation is universal in intent - of course! In that sense, I am a universalist because I believe God loves all that has been created (Psalm 145:8-9). God "is not willing for any to perish," but desires all to discover the liberating truth. So when people like me hear exclusivists act as if God elected some to privilege and others to damnation, we can't stop asking questions.... What kind of God would create a universe planning to consign much of it to destruction and even worse - to eternal conscious torment? And if people end up in hell "by mistake" - not by God's pre-planned intention - why would God have decided that was a risk worth taking? What kind of God would find it "self-glorifying" to enjoy bliss in heaven with the redeemed while the unredeemed suffer eternally down in the basement? What kind of people would, upon sober reflection, consider that end to be blissful? Is that the best "good news" that Christianity can muster - eternal salvation of a few, eternal damnation of the rest?”

“When we say things like that, Exclusivists say, "Aha! So you're universalists after all! You believe everything is going to end up fine so there is no need for Christian evangelism and mission."

My problem with his article is that he in fact dances around the subject. He seems to be a universalist but fearful of admitting it. After all if you read the Wikipedia article you see that some universalists thought that there was something akin to Purgatory before people attained the salvation. Universalism does not define how one gets there or what the duties of the Christian is here and now. So why not say “Yes I am a univeralist. I believe in a God who won't be defeated and who is not willing that any should be lost and all should be saved. So that every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is God and worthy of the title God.”

Now comes the time to redefine your Christianity. If your mission is no longer bringing souls into the church, what is it? We should have some relevance aside from the old tradition that we are bringing the knowledge of how to be saved to the unsaved. If we as Christians are no longer selling salvation we have to sell compassion and ways to live happier fuller lives. And that is a whole lot harder to demonstrate then a claim of salvation in the sweet by and by.

McLaren is right and he is wrong. Pretty much like the rest of us. But I think we really need to work on being clear when we can be clear. Talking about the Whig Party is not really that clear either. Abraham Lincoln ran as a Whig before he ran as a Republican. But most of us don't know a whole lot about what the Whig's thought anyway. The Republicans took a stand to be clear to the voters. Christianity is far too divided to be compared to U.S. Political parties, Christianity has a lot of differing beliefs we can't simply assume that there is even agreement within Christianity to disagree with. So we have to move forward with what we do believe and not with what we don't believe. Even if we don't have all the answers to all the objections. That is where the conversation comes in. Why can't God save Hitler? What should the message of the church be, should each church even have the same message or function? Christianity indeed has to change.

I am beginning to think that one of the first things we need to do is to convert the musicians of the Christian world. The Christian churches spend so much time singing their lyrics, which in general reinforce a foolish variety of Christianity. Oh it is the dominate view no doubt but it is filled with meaningless trivialities and downright contradictory statements. Consider the following which I recently saw while visiting a church.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGlx11BxF24



Notice this quote towards the end at 2:30 min:

"I came to save you from so many sins
But they have a cost
Someone has to die
You...or Me
So I took on your sin
And traded in my life for yours
And I died in your place
Because I love you"


Over all the message is fairly good. But it makes so little sense to say that "Someone has to die You or me". We all still die by the way...And who says that someone has to die because of sin? God? Why did He make that rule in the first place if it is a rule and why not tell us about this rule in the Bible? (you say surely die is a consequence of sin not an act of God). How did Jesus take my sin? I still sin don't I, I bet you do too. So He hardly took my sin as I still am busy committing it. Who did He trade His life for mine? Is God not in control? Is God doing the trading...because he says you sin and you must die...I have to kill someone because of sin!? So then Jesus comes along and shows us forgiveness...something that God would not do because God demands somebody die.

The conclusion is:
"I am the way, the truth and the life
I am Jesus
I am not here to condemn you
I came to bring you back to life
Rely on me
I will forgive you
And give you eternal life
I love you 
And I did all of this for you
To have a relationship with you
Will you follow me?"

Would not the more appropriate method be to express the love of God revealed through Jesus that He would come and show us what love is, what forgiveness is and to what length love goes in that greater love hath no man then to lay down their life. That even though evil kills and destroys it is no match for God who raises and gives life. That is the message of the cross. Not a trade, not a God that demands someone has to die. 

Yet when I saw this video at church I had just sat through the singing of 3 songs, which held that Christ paid out penalty or as the lyrics from "In Christ Alone" say:  

"Til on that cross as Jesus died
The wrath of God was satisfied
For every sin on Him was laid
Here in the death of Christ I live, I live"

Or this from the "Scandal of Grace" from Hillsong united:

"Too much to make sense of it all

I know that Your love breaks my fall

The scandal of grace, You died in my place 

So my soul will live"

 

The "wrath" of God was satisfied because Jesus is killed on the cross? Really is that the gospel?
It is not too much to make sense of if you simply remove the tradition of Penal substitutionary atonement. Which was never even part of the Bible or the early church but a church tradition built upon a misrepresentation of God.

Catchy tunes carry on a message that is contrary to the gospel. It is contrary to the nature of God and is completely foreign to the message of Jesus. And we keep it alive because we don't take time to think about what our religion is saying. It is time to reclaim the God of love and leave the god of paganism behind.

Christianity Growing Up

I just read an provocative article on Atoday.com. Since it is short here it is:

I tried to heal someone this week.

I have a friend who is extremely sick, as in die-any-day type of sick.  Furthermore, he doesn’t believe salvation is for him and rejects Jesus as his Savior and Friend.  Lately it has become nearly impossible for him to feel any type of love from God, his family, or his friends because his sickness is clouding his thoughts.

I have done, quite literally, everything I can think of in order to show him the love of God.  I have prayed the tears out of my eyes.  I’ve tried Bible studies.  Prayer circles.  Different doctors.  Just being a listener.  Pastoral counseling.  I can’t list all the things I’ve tried.  But he got worse, not better.  With every change in tactic I expected some type of improvement, yet there has been no change in his sickness or in his soul.

There is no prayer like a desperate prayer.  At one point I got so downcast that I asked God to violate his free will and save him no matter what he wants.   I was, and kinda-sorta-but-not-really still am dead serious about that despite how I know that the destruction of free will precedes the destruction of true love.

Lately, my best friend and I have been talking about miracles.  About how Jesus essentially said that even a little faith could move a mountain if it was hindering the work of God.  About how Jesus said His disciples would do greater and more things than He ever did.  About whether these and other statements were meant specifically for His 12 disciples in that cultural context or if they are timeless principles.

I thought to myself:  If only my friend wasn’t sick, he still might not choose God, but at least the choice would be clearer.  If only my friend wasn’t sick, maybe he could feel love again.  If only my friend wasn’t sick, his judgment would be normal…

I asked God to give me the authority over this type of disease.  I told God He could take the authority away from me after the disease was gone.  I had almost asked God that question earlier this month, but I didn’t yet trust myself to ask not out of caring for my friend, but out of doubt that God would do it on His own.  I just wanted to give him a clear mind, so that maybe, possibly, prayerfully, he will choose to follow Christ.

So I tried to heal someone this week.

Didn’t work.  And I feel dumb.

Thy will be done……so easy to say.  So difficult to mean.

Go ahead and read through the comments as they are about as provocative in what they say and don't say. The author in the comments states that his main concern is the salvation of his friend.

What I have come to think is that we have as Christians taken a view that it is all about coming to believe in God as we ourselves believe. The author of the article wants his friend to view God the same way he does. But his friends mind is cloudy or sick or whatever he does not see God the same way. In fact this is the problem we all face. We want people to think just as we do. If they think like us then they will see the truth. But many Christians have created a religion where that truth...that specific knowledge is what everyone must have to be saved. Salvation then becomes the product of correct knowledge.

Yet none of us actually have correct knowledge or really any method of determining correct knowledge. We like others have a set of beliefs some of which are based upon reason and suppositions and some of which are based upon tradition and upbringing. But we do not “know”.

In many Christian churches they are dealing with how they can deal with science which presents a view of an ancient earth and constant change. Evolution may not tell us where we came from but it presence is pretty well established and it is at odds with a young earth creation as interpreted by many in the book of Genesis. If the story of Genesis is alluded to by Jesus then many Christians will interpret that to mean that it is a divine expression that the Genesis stories are literal truth. Much the same as many look at New Testament verses about woman and authority in the church. How does the church deal with such things when the culture is more equitable and more knowledgeable.

Churches develop their structure and form by their claims to knowledge of revealed truth. When one church finds different truth in their Bibles then they form a new church based upon their new revealed truth. Thousands and thousands of differing versions of truth. Yet often to be saved you have to acquire the correct view of truth. Which often finds itself revealed in my version of truth. Insert your own views as the “my” in that sentence.

I think there is a growing movement of people who find this troubling and who can't grant themselves the privilege of the belief that their version of beliefs represents the truth. If only others could be freed from their delusions and upbringing or traditions they could realize the truth and be saved by God. But this view seems to not work with that of a God of love. Salvation based upon what you know or what you live up to because you believe it seems different from a salvation based upon a love of God that seeks to save the lost.

We often suspect that if there were miracles all the time that might make us believe in the presence of God. Just look at the miracles the legs amputated regrown etc. Yet all it would suggest is that there is supernatural forces in the world. It would not be evidence of a God of love unless all legs were regrown or no one died. Even supernatural experiences would not give us knowledge of truth. We are in a very weak and limited state when it comes to truth. Science has to slowly build it's knowledge and it is forced to regularly redefine its propositions. Religion is far slower to redefine its propositions. But it seems we are way past time to begin redefining what our knowledge of truth is. A little more humility and a lot less surety are in order.

God could very well save every living creature for a new life, would that be out of the character of love to be accepted. What may be the future of Christianity is not the traditions of the past but a new view of what religion can do for us in the now. How can it be used to encourage better and fuller lives for people. Whether they believe in Christ or God or the supernatural. Leaving salvation entirely up to God the Christian would then focus on helping others here and now. No longer soul winning as we have no ability to win a soul anyway even if we knew what it was. Perhaps Christianity is really as easy as the story of caring for people that Jesus taught*. Perhaps the idea of damnation was just sticks to prod people into doing something that they were reluctant to do. Rather like the promises or threats a parent gives to a child for doing what the child should do. But at some point the promises and the threats don't become the impetus to action. Can Christianity actually grow up?

*Matthew 25:34  NIV“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

No need for ordination traditions

Perhaps Unwittingly John McVay of Walla Walla University has presented us a way out of the women's ordination mess that has caught up with the Adventist church once again. In McVay's article he quotes 8 points from William Tyndale. They are in general the points of the Reformation against the abuse of the Roman Catholic Church in it rulership of the people through Priestly abuse. He points summarized simply are these:

1. Ordination is not a sacrament
2. The various orders and titles are simply names of offices and services.
3. Faithfulness matters
4. Christ is a Priest forever none other is needed.
5. A new testament Elder is the counterpart of a old testament priest and is nothing but an officer to teach.
6.Taking advantage of people is condemned by the Bible
7. No Office or "ordination" bestows any special status before God.
8.There is no special ceremony at all required in making of our spiritual officers than to choose able people.

For years I have said that there is no Biblical instruction for our practice of one person in charge of a church. That we are simply taking the Old Roman Catholic tradition of one Bishop per city which then became one Bishop per church and instead of calling them a Bishop which simply means Elder we called that Elder in the SDA church a Pastor. We then followed those practices and developed our whole ordination system. 

Perhaps it is time for the ordination system to stop and fall by the side of the road and begin a new tradition more in line with the Bible whereby a pastor is someone that looks after other people. As in its word predecessor the shepherd. Of course people are not sheep and just because a small flock may have only one shepherd to push the animals around in a certain direction we should take the concept into the meaning of someone one guiding and directing, teaching and caring and comforting people. Just as we don't have one teacher in a church there is no need to be limited to one pastor. This allows people who have the ability in the church to exercise their particular gifts to their follow believers in the church. 

So does the Adventist church need to allow women to be ordained and become pastors and divide the church between the contemporary Western world and the rest of the world. ( I am refusing to use the terms first (aligned with the United States), second (aligned with the Soviet Union) and third world (unaligned) as they are obsolete terms when the Soviet Union collapsed, the unaligned 3rd world is no longer a valid concept). Would there be any question in the cultures of the non westernized world that a woman can guide and direct or teach and care for other members of their church. Of course not that is perfectly acceptable. What was not acceptable was to go against the Westernized traditions accepted in those cultures of a male dominated clergy. Sadly taught to them by a poorly thought out tradition produced by a less then credible Roman Catholic church tradition. 

The Reformation gave us so many great ideas and most of them were lost as the people simply formed sides for or against the church organizations at the time. Reformation ended when they accepted that they could start new churches who would then create concrete traditions as unmovable as their fore fathers they rejected.

The Adventist church stands at a point where it can break with it's own mistakes and traditions and create a contemporary and more relevant and thinking religion. Or it can attempt to continue with the mistakes of yesteryear. When it speaks of God made sacraments that are simply man made traditions.

What is the first prophecy

I keep reading the Adventist Today Blog, though I am constantly amazed at some of the material that Stephen Foster posts. For example he has an article entitled the Purpose of Prophecy. In it he writes:

"Prophecy is the God-inspired revelation of what He wants those who claim/believe Him to know. In the 66 books that comprise the canonical narrative, the first prophecy we come to is the one which encapsulates the entire remaining narrative writ large—Genesis 3:15. It is the prophecy describing God’s plan.

Is the first prophecy the prototypical prophecy? Does it reveal to us what prophecy is all about in terms of purpose? It tells us what will happen and why; but not how it will happen. Subsequent prophecies, particularly those of the prophet Isaiah, certainly do reveal, or detail, how. (Isaiah 7:14 comes to mind for example.)"

If the first prophecy is some kind of prediction of what will happen then it is certainly not Gen. 3:15 all though that verse is frequently cited by ill informed people as being a messianic prophecy. It of course is not and is never referred to in the rest of the Bible in anyway to the Messiah. But as with much of the first chapters of Genesis people read into it what they want.  But let us assume it presents a predictive prophecy, is it the first one? No it is not we read the following in Gen. 2:17

 but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not 1eat, for in the day that you eat from it ayou will surely die.”

So what if it is meant to be Stephen's prototypical prophecy. Well that is open to question. It goes back to the old canard that the first use of a word in the Bible is supposed to be the key to understanding any and all uses of that word.

When ever I read Stephen I think how sad that there are so many Adventists who think so little and talk so much. They regurgitate their traditions and don't have a clue when their traditions are errant at all because as a tradition, they rarely question what they already believe. That is the biggest problem in Adventism and in religion in general.

Important speech by a famous Seventh-day Adventist at the President Prayer Breakfast. It is nice to see some intelligence from a prominent Adventist for a change.



For more see: http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/02/07/prayer-breakfast-speaker-praises-jesus-gets-political-calls-political-correctness-dangerous-hammers-fiscal-irresponsibility/

Longer version:

From C-SPAN 

And then God made the sun visible on the 4th day.

I am so frustrated by the infantile nature of this quarters lessons. It is sort of like they are written by a someone in Kindergarten.  Take for instance this from Sunday's lesson:

A third possibility is that the sun was already in existence but was obscured by clouds or volcanic dust and was not visible or fully functional until the fourth day. One can compare this possibility with the planet Venus, where a similar situation occurs today.

Somehow created suddenly becomes made visible " Gen 3:16 "Then God made two great 4lights" Or what about the third possiblity that of volcanic dust...are they trying to tell us that God used natural processes, actual destructive processes in his creation? I wish they would acknowledge the obvious but they really aren't.

They of course know that the sun moon and stars made on the 4th day does not work. There would be no water on the earth without a sun anyway, it would just be a solid ball of ice. No ocean, no liquid water. They also have to know that light created on the first day is not the light of God. If as they assert God is light then He has always been light He would not have to create himself as light on the first day.

If you want to make the verses in Genesis literal...well it just does not work anyway you slice it. But foolish people keep trying.  Of course venus is not dark just because of their methane clouds the planet very likely sees the light of the sun during it's day. But sad to say the lesson quarter assumes really strange things. But really should our religion be based on strange and foolish assumptions...I think not.

Biased news at Atoday, what is social justice anyway?

Notice this headline from Atoday.com: Adventist Pastor Prays for Social Justice and Individual Morality

The article then goes on to report about an Adventist Pastor in Jamaica reported by the Jamaican paper "the Gleaner". Yet if you look at the Gleaner article here. You see not one mention of the phrase "social justice". So how does he pray for social Justice if he does not mention social justice. I wonder. Perhaps the news people over at Atoday can give us the definition of "social justice" Of course they never have before but maybe they can now that they have determined people are praying for it without actually praying for it.

If you think you are getting news in the Adventist media you are not. Their biases prevent them from actually reporting news and that is pretty sad. Why they could not even give the link to the Gleaner article...but I guess that makes sense you would not want to post the link to the article that proves your headline is a lie would they.

Present Truth Propaganda

The Seventh-day Adventist denomination retained the doctrine of “Present Truth" from the Millerite movement. To the Millerites "Present Truth" was the soon second coming of Jesus and destruction of the earth which they later determined to be scheduled for 1844. Early Adventist pioneers like Joseph Bates held that the “shut door” teaching that Ellen White once also taught was similarly "Present Truth". Christians outside of the Adventist denomination also hold to their beliefs as "Present Truth" as in the set of sermon titles of Charles Spurgeon. The term is applied to ideas believed to be given by God to any group especially for their time or stated as follows on the website Heaven Dwellers:

“In each of God's ages and dispensations there has been truth generated from God that was peculiar and particular to that age or dispensation to which it pertained. By that we mean that in each age God made known a truth which related directly to the calling that then stood before God. It has ever been the responsibility of God's people in each age and dispensation to distinguish "Present Truth"…”

We may think of a few biblical examples of “Present Truth” which would be specifics to a particular situation. Israel was told to return from their false religious practices and seek justice, mercy and repentance. Those would be specific to the general truth, that truth of returning to following God. Justice and mercy would be the enduring truths, the "Present Truth" was the particular application of the need for the general truth. Another example might be the specific requirements for the city of Jerusalem when they attempted to re-establish Sabbath observance.

Let's look at the application of "Present Truth" used by Joseph Bates in regards to the shut door theory of early Adventism. (The shut door theory as held by certain Millerite Adventist between 1844-1854 maintained that Miller gave the final call for salvation and those who did not accept his message were lost. The theory was abandoned when they decided the cleansing was of the sanctuary in heaven and not a cleansing of earth.)

“Why this third angel's loud cry about the commandments of God, because the fourth one, which had been trodden down for many generations, is to be restored and kept as the commandment requires. The second angel's message and voice from heaven required God's people to leave the churches. The seventh-day Sabbath could not, nor can not now be restored there. It is to be done in the Philadelphia state of the church, and no where else. This is the "Present Truth" in the commandments in the Ark of his Testimony. The "Present Truth" in this is: That the master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and now stands beside the Ark containing the commandments. The ""Present Truth"," then, of this third angel's message is, The Sabbath And Shutdoor.” (See also the picture on the Chart. ) An Explanation of the Typical and Anti-Typical Sanctuary, By the Scriptures. With A Chart Revelation III:

The problem with "Present Truth" is that it often takes general truth and distorts it to support the presuppositions of the times. The general truth is that at some time Christ will return and the opportunity for decisions will end. The "Present Truth" of the shut door meant if one had heard Millers exhortation and no longer believed them they were lost. "Present Truth" became a term to make their beliefs appear to have more import then they would have if they were simply acknowledged it to be predictions or suppositions.

"Present Truth" took on the most peculiar incarnation: that is propaganda for a particular belief. If you and others believed it and it was a contemporary belief it must be true and God must have given it to you to perceive. It is now a powerful tool to tell people that you have some unique truth, not some old truth that everyone else could have from reading their Bibles, but a particular truth that is special for your time and place as a special gift from God to you and your church.

Adventism has taken "Present Truth" farther in that nothing can contradict "Present Truth", because once held it stands forever. P. Gerard Damsteegt writes:

“New light will not manifest itself in a form that is altogether different from the light the church already possesses. It will take the form of a further advancement of "Present Truth". It is a fuller, clearer, and brighter unfolding of the old truth. There will be harmony with the theological landmarks, the Spirit of Prophecy, and historicist principles of Bible interpretation. Thus it will not replace, substitute, radically change, or tear down the foundations of Adventist faith and practice.” (Seventh-day Adventist Doctrines and Progressive Revelation © P. Gerard Damsteegt Journal of the Adventist Theological Society, 2/1 (1991): 77-92)

Thus the propaganda of "Present Truth" becomes institutionalized. "Present Truth" becomes a euphemism for Adventist beliefs. If we (or the Adventists pioneers) believe it, it was or is called "Present Truth." This institutionalization becomes very much like the authority of the Roman Catholic Church and tradition becoming equal in authority to the Bible and dictating how the Bible must be interpreted. “Present Truth" becomes the theological landmarks. Thus, traditional Adventism has placed itself as the holder of “Present Truth” from an America of the late 1800’s which now is seen as “landmarks” that cannot be changed.

This traditional view of "Present Truth" is now arrayed against the Progressive Adventist view. (“Progressive Adventism” should not be confused with the unfortunate mixture of progressive or left wing politics and theology that so characterize the dialogue in some circles.) The Progressive Adventist seeks to learn how and when to reinterpret beliefs to maintain a reasonable theological view. It holds that "Present Truth" is progressive truth -- it is a new truth or a revised understanding of an old truth for this time or situation. For example at one time Ellen White condemned the use of bicycles for their impracticality and expense while today they are practical, good exercise, better for the environment and far cheaper than many forms of transport. Thus even if something was assumed to be divinely inspired instruction, with time and change the instruction is no longer valid, the general truth of not wasting ones money remains true but the "Present Truth" of a past age does not apply today. Most traditional Adventists understand this example. But they will not apply the same reasoning to what they consider an Adventist landmark doctrine. “Present Truth” will instead be used as propaganda to prop up a potentially irrelevant or discredited older understanding.

Besides being stuck with paradigms now 150 years old the emphasis on being the special recipients and defenders of “Present Truth” fosters the remnant triumphalism that is both offensive to others and in some instances just plain silly.

The rediscovery by Adventists of the Sabbath was “Present Truth” to them. But, somehow when the Seventh-day Baptists taught it a hundred years earlier it was not “Present Truth?” It makes little sense until we realize the value was in the perception that we Adventists had something special and of greater truth value than anyone else: “Come and get it, new and improved, now with 50% more truth.”

“Present Truth” is a fiction, a meaningless term whose only value lies in its advertising potential.

The Death of Adventist Media

Not long ago a couple of alternative Adventist media publications announced that Walter Veith was being accused of Antisemitism. No source of the accusation was given and no context of the actual statements were given just a couple of words.

Here is how Spectrum reported the accusation:

Because it is not clear who complained, Walter Veith has falsely lashed out at Spectrum and another independent Adventist magazine in Germany, EANN, edited by the former Euro-Africa Division communication director. EANN published an article, "Veith's dangerous game with the Jewish question - a disturbing fact-check" on Veith's talk titled "King of the North-Part 2." In it Veith, a noted conspiracy theorist, mixed interpretations of the Bible with theories about Jesuit and Masonic roles in the Holocaust, offensive language about "little yellow cloth" and "herding" of Jews and a positive citation of Benjamin Freedman, a "professional antisemite" according to the Anti-Defemation League.

Here is the original statement and first accusation of the Antisemitism from EANN (Independent Journal of Religion, Church and Society) as translated from German by Google translator:

Reason is the opinion of the lecture "king of the north", Part 2, by Dr. Walter Veith, an Adventist from South Africa, on 20 October 2012 in Nuremberg held and was also webcast. "In it, he defended the thesis that Freemasons and Jesuits had used the Nazi era, the Jews finally get to Palestine to Christianity get distracted from the real biblical statements and misled," said the statement. Embedded in this "conspiracy theory" approach using the speaker terms, such as "Verherdung" of the Jews in the sense of cooperation and bustle. He also plays down the Star of David as a "yellow handkerchief". "We believe that such designations antisemitic discriminatory and get a criminal trivializing the Nazi reign of terror, very close."

That either of this two publications ran with this story shows just how journalistic inept Adventist media has become, there is definitely a story here but they are not reporting it. I would go so far as to say it is inept on both the right and the left leaving us with no viable source of Adventist news. The EANN report lists a couple of words and the subjective view of the writer that the word are somehow Antisemitism. In fact the EANN article does not even list an author. Apparently the rumors were enough to get an official banishment for Veith in Germany. Where apparently rumors are enough for the church to condemn whether or not the government finds anything out in their investigation. But “herding” and “yellow handkerchief” in regards to historical actions of the Nazi's is enough to be accused by fellow Adventists of being anti-Semitic.

I have little agreement with Walter Veith on probably any of his beliefs. But that does not give anyone cause to report such completely subjective personal views as if they were facts. That this is what has become of the Adventist media is in my view one of the reasons that the church is so fractured. People have no objective source of information about the happenings in their own church. This story has been ongoing for about a month now and it has never even been mentioned by Adventist News Network (ANN). No mention of Veith's ban from German Adventist churches either.

What this means is that Adventism has no reliable source of church related news. What news we do get is often biased and poorly reported like that from EANN and Spectrum and Adventist Today.

Veith denies the charge saying in part:

Dear Brethren in Germany

I wish to briefly respond to the allegations of anti Semitism during my recent visit to Germany.

Let me assure you brethren that I am not by any stretch of the imagination an Anti Semite. Indeed, any form of racism is abhorrent to me and having grown up in South Africa I have firsthand experience regarding this issue and have been an ardent campaigner against racist injustice all my life. Also, as South African, I was probably not attuned to the hypersensitivity of the current German nation regarding the injustices perpetrated on the Jews by the N a z i regime and my comments have thus been misinterpreted. As you well know, German is not my first language and I believe that some of the supposed statements regarding belittling remarks such as “gelbes Tuechlein” stem from my linguistic inadequacy in this department and certainly not from malicious intent as some hope to surmise. Moreover, the treatment the Jews received in Germany and for that matter from many other nations as well can only be described as diabolical and there was certainly historic ‘herding’ involved to the shame of all who practiced it. Moreover, ‘herding’ is the modus operandi of Christ’s adversary, who is herding the whole world into a collective mindset which will result in the final persecution of God’s antitypical Israel. This is not a conspiracy theory but a prophetic reality and the Spirit of Prophecy warns that if we associate with those who war against Christ we will soon come to see matters in the same light as they and lose our discernment. I plead with you dear brethren to note the serious times we are living in and heed the warnings that God has so graciously given us through the Spirit of Prophecy.

Adventism has long had a conspiracy theorist mindset, it is no wonder that Veith has the same and he defends himself by the selection of quotes from Ellen White. As most SDA traditionalist do. His defense is damaged by the victimization he sees as his lot, though in this case he is being victimized by rumor and poor reporting and likely even false reporting. I say false because when you really have a case you are able to give the context and the statements. When a report does not have those then they likely have no facts either. There are actually politically liberal websites that exist by taking quotes out of context and editing things to make them appear quite different from the reality and these sites are often read by those in charge of Spectrum at least. It is often noticeable in their articles as well.

We are in the information age but sadly we are finding that information is so often twisted and biased and so contrary to the facts that people don't know what to believe and far too often make poor assumptions about what to believe. Choosing sides instead of acting upon facts to make informed decisions.

I do doubt that my little article with a plea to actual reason and facts will do much good. As propaganda has taken the place of knowledge. But I will put it forward and next week demonstrate how propaganda is often pretended to be present truth. We as a church are not really growing in knowledge and reason and that is why I don't think there is much future in the Seventh-day Adventist church.

Update: 12-22-12-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just today I see over on the Spectrum Website more journalistic malpractice. They complain about a Ugandan SDA leader. They begin with the following:

..."As is part of the church's offical statement and was also happening behind the scenes, there were attempts to discredit the New Vision report. The church states: 

Recent comments in the Ugandan newspaper New Vision attributed to the head of the Seventh-day Adventist Church in East-Central Africa do not convey an accurate representation of his intentions or the voted position of the church regarding homosexuality. . .

The newspaper reports suggest that Pastor Blasius Ruguri fully supports the proposed legislation before the Ugandan Parliament that may include incarcerating and even executing people for same sex intimate contact.

In response to those reports, pastor Ruguri today said, "It is unfortunate that the media took the liberty to extend my statements to suggest what I did not say or imply. I have never seen that bill. Mine was a general statement to disapprove of homosexual practice and behavior.

Ruguri might want to work on his communication skills since he appears to have misled another reporter for a different newpaper on the same day. (This has not been reported until now.) ..."

 

Yet in fact there is no anti-homosexual bill written yet as the Huffington Post reports: 

Parliamentarian David Bahati said the bill, which is expected to be voted on next month, had "moved away from the death penalty after considering all the issues that have been raised."
"There is no death penalty," he told The Associated Press.
Bahati said the bill now focuses on protecting children from gay pornography, banning gay marriage, counseling gays, as well as punishing those who promote gay culture. Jail terms are prescribed for various offenses, he said, offering no details. The most recent version of the bill hasn't been publicly released.
In 2009, when Bahati first introduced the bill, he charged that homosexuals threatened family values in Uganda and that gays from the West were recruiting poor Ugandan children into gay lifestyles with promises of money and a better life. He said a tough new law was needed because a colonial-era law against sodomy was not strong enough.
The bill, popular among many in Uganda but condemned abroad, has been under scrutiny by a committee whose members now say they are ready to put it forward for a vote. One of the members, Krispus Ayena, said Friday that some parliamentarians spoke strongly against certain provisions in the bill as well as the death penalty itself.
"There was a dissenting voice in the committee," Ayena said. "They argued very forcefully that we should not do a thing like that: to regulate what goes on in bedrooms. First of all, is it practicable to regulate that? And there are those who say this is very oppressive."
The bill's original wording proposed the death penalty for cases where HIV-infected homosexuals had sex, where gay people had sex with minors or the disabled, and where gays were discovered having sex for the second time. Bahati said at the time that these offenses amounted to what he called "aggravated homosexuality."

Then you read the comments and you see how people fall into line not knowing any facts because the original article did not give a balanced view but assumed the lying of the Adventist official. It is sad that such political agenda's can so distort actual news reporting. But it is goes on constantly. Just know you can't trust these people...and that is the saddest part as if there is anyone you should be able to trust it is a Christian. My advice to these organizations: deal in facts and then in a separate article deal with you interpretation of the facts. Don't merge them together.