tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10270506.post7405365880162796200..comments2024-01-30T03:40:00.558-08:00Comments on Adventist Media Response and Conversation: What is the Moral Influence Theory of AtonementRon Corsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02160607058464028162noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10270506.post-76173890827868049602009-10-25T18:59:23.442-07:002009-10-25T18:59:23.442-07:00This being my blog I don't think I will take a...This being my blog I don't think I will take a hike. I will see I doubt God is too pleased with your picture of Him. You actually in my opinion are confirming peoples reasons to reject Christianity. So I feel somewhat honored to be considered someone opposed to your view.Ron Corsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02160607058464028162noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10270506.post-78439253377669296982009-10-25T16:16:42.802-07:002009-10-25T16:16:42.802-07:00Corson.Test God. Have fun............................Corson.Test God. Have fun.........................while you can.<br />Now take a hike.Theodore A. Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10197982266788152081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10270506.post-48648864734911281272009-10-25T15:14:09.545-07:002009-10-25T15:14:09.545-07:00An amazing misuse of the Bible.
(Gen 9:3 NIV) Ev...An amazing misuse of the Bible.<br /><br />(Gen 9:3 NIV) Everything that lives and moves will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything.<br /><br />(Gen 9:4 NIV) "But you must not eat meat that has its lifeblood still in it.<br /><br />(Gen 9:5 NIV) And for your lifeblood I will surely demand an accounting. I will demand an accounting from every animal. And from each man, too, I will demand an accounting for the life of his fellow man.<br /><br />(Gen 9:6 NIV) "Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made man.Ron Corsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02160607058464028162noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10270506.post-75131891970522332142009-10-25T09:55:17.866-07:002009-10-25T09:55:17.866-07:00The passages you cite, sir, even tho plural person...The passages you cite, sir, even tho plural personal pronouns are used, those pronouns are not universally inclusive. Since Paul is writing to a group who have beleived and obeyed what he taught that group is like-minded with the writer. However God's oath in Gen. 9:5NIVc<br />is unalterably inclusive since you are not outside of the grouping, man. And I am certain that up to this point in time you have never given God the accounting he does by law demand from each man too by Jesus' life having been taken by bloodshed.<br />Therefore you are not in that group to whom Paul wrote by not being like-minded, as you admit, with what Paul's view is as stated in Rom. 2:13<br /> And since you are of the false assumption that it is 'view points' that are equal to or over riding what God by law demands from you.<br />I think He is pretty well highly reconciled by the existance of Lord's law given through the apostles to not referain from your utter destruction for not obeing his son exactly as the Lord thy God has commanded! Don't believe me. Be wise and put the Living God to a test.<br />Have a good day, and like me, it is one of your last.Theodore A. Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10197982266788152081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10270506.post-87294141898452769222009-10-25T08:53:08.943-07:002009-10-25T08:53:08.943-07:00Jones wrote:
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All who do not obey God this Way ...Jones wrote:<br /><br />--<br />All who do not obey God this Way are reconciled to God by law for destruction.<br />--<br />What a bizarre statement. First it does not use the word reconciled in it's proper meaning of the Biblical context. He uses it quite apart from the Bible in the way that is similar to this dictionary definition:<br />"to cause (a person) to accept or be resigned to something not desired: He was reconciled to his fate."<br /><br />Instead of it's Biblical meaning which is: "To reestablish a close relationship between."<br /><br />In fact you never find the Bible using reconcile in connection with a punishment.<br /><br />--<br />(Col 1:20 NIV) and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.<br /><br />(Col 1:21 NIV) Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior.<br /><br />(Col 1:22 NIV) But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation--<br /><br />--<br />However it is very instructive to hear the other sides view. It makes us more sure of our view.Ron Corsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02160607058464028162noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10270506.post-91640692014904734962009-10-25T06:10:00.145-07:002009-10-25T06:10:00.145-07:00The word 'reconciled' when concluded to be...The word 'reconciled' when concluded to be positive is not the correct conclusion. <br /><br />As to Corson.<br />" For God so loved the world that the he sent his only begotten son so that (at the hands of wicked men his life was taken by bloodshed according to the set purpose of God for each man too) so that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have everlasting life."<br /><br />"And from each man too I will demand an accounting for the life of his fellow man."<br /><br />But if you do not give God the accounting he has demanded by an addition to his law, you perish.<br /><br />"It is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom. 2:13<br /><br />All who do not obey God this Way are reconciled to God by law for destruction.<br /> <br />"And for your, Jesus', lifeblood I will surely demand an accounting. I will demand an accounting from every animal. And from each man too I will demand an accounting for the life of his fellow man."Theodore A. Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10197982266788152081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10270506.post-64296267192067424752009-09-02T22:21:52.375-07:002009-09-02T22:21:52.375-07:00I concur with your thought that how we view the at...I concur with your thought that how we view the atonement and the reason for Christ death does expose how we view God.<br /><br />I think it is in our nature to try to put the pieces together that creates a picture we can believe in. So as Elaine noted there are many different narratives, I think we each should take the time to put our own together as the Spirit directs us. Hopefully we can learn from each other and rearrange our pieces and filling in the blank spots so we have a better picture of our Loving God.<br /><br />When I hear that Jesus died because He loved us then the question I ask is what is love?<br /><br />To me Love is who God is and love show up in God’s dealings with us. I further define Love as the principles (laws) which God ordained to govern His universe – which are but a reflection of His character – who He is. With that we can start putting a face on Love – it allows a degree of freedom in thought and creativity, it is thoughtful, generous, giving, helpful, it is responsible and accountable, it is honest, truthful and has integrity, et cetera. When we live in harmony with the principles of Love we find happiness and joy that is unmatched. <br /><br />Unfortunately using the freedom allotted us an alternative set of principles (laws) have been advanced with the promise of happiness and power not achievable else where. These principles are a variation or even repudiation of the Law of Love which we have come to know as Sin. When we live by the principles of Sin our actions as seen as sinful. <br /><br />The only way to know if the Laws of Sin are truthful or not is to let them play out. Because Sin allows for deceit and confusion it is difficult to figure out what is what. God put on skin and came to this earth to help us see the contrast between the Law of Love and the Law of Sin. Jesus, being God, was born with the Law of Love governing His Being – because that’s who He is. Those governed by the Law of Sin tried to destroy Him from the very outset – the contrast was stark and continued all though His life here on earth – hunger vs. plenty; storm vs. calm; turmoil vs. peace; sickness vs. health; death vs. life; the truth about God vs. the falsehoods about God. <br /><br />Jesus had compassion for people burden by Sin and its consequences. He offered them forgiveness for their misdeeds and an offer of reestablishing the Law of Love as the governing force in their lives. <br /><br />If Sin had it way it would destroy God – only one problem, God cannot be destroyed. The death and resurrection of Jesus made this point abundantly clear and stands as the sharpest distinction between Love and Sin. <br /><br />If Sin is allowed to dominate the world the world will become a living hell and will self-destruct. This is where we are today – this is why time goes on – to let Sin play out it hand completely – to let it prove itself a liar.<br /><br />In the mean time we continue the work of Jesus by being a demonstration of what it is like to live by the principles of God. We are the living proof that God can write His laws on our hearts and it will show up in our actions. We do this because we have found favor with God not to gain favor from God.<br /><br /><br />AlAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10270506.post-82363814212893323432009-08-01T16:01:31.843-07:002009-08-01T16:01:31.843-07:00It seems to me the Gospel writers are in agreement...It seems to me the Gospel writers are in agreement with Paul. John 3:16 God so loved the world that He sent His son that whoever believes will have eternal life.<br /><br />Other than love they don't seem to be searching for any other reason for the atonement. Then when you look at the Apostolic writers they are the ones who try to draw more out of the meaning but they are still very straight forward to the Gospels and Paul. <br /><br /> <br />From ReligiousTolerance.org:<br /><br />Clement, (? - circa 99 CE) referring to Yeshua's life, wrote: "Through Him God has called us from darkness to light from ignorance to knowledge of the glory of His name." He also wrote that Yeshua's sufferings should bring us to repentance.<br />bullet <br /><br />Hemas, writing circa 150 CE, suggested that Yeshua reveals to us the true God.<br />bullet <br /><br />Barnabas (circa 1 to 60? CE) wrote that Yeshua came to abolish death and to demonstrate resurrection after death. 1 <br /><br />I realized that they used my article a week or so ago but I just noticed that they changed Jesus to Yeshua, I wonder if they are a Jewish leaning group. Anyway you see that they are trying harder to understand just how atonement works. Most of the other Church Fathers just mention atonement as a foregone conclusion it is done. God has accomplished the atonement. They don't really delve into the why very much. Much later people began to read into texts the meanings such as the penal aspects but that is mainly over a thousand years later, with the notable exception of Origen who seemed to stretch to accept every known theory and created many of his own fanciful though many of them were.Ron Corsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02160607058464028162noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10270506.post-67757695162762883112009-08-01T14:22:30.999-07:002009-08-01T14:22:30.999-07:00Ron, your essay on the MIT was excellent.
My quest...Ron, your essay on the MIT was excellent.<br />My question relates to the first NT scripture that seeks to explain Jesus' death. Paul had his own explanation, but how do the later gospels explain it by quoting Jesus' own statements; statements that were not taped, but only were in the memory of those who first heard and passed it on to the gospel writers.<br />What and how can the different explanations of the reason for Christ's death be presented as one with no opposing or dissenting opinion. There is so many different narratives, how can they be all correct.Elaine Nelsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10958402324572049927noreply@blogger.com